Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The French Defense Revisited (Read 16292 times)
Nernstian59
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 230
Joined: 12/15/21
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #55 - 01/08/25 at 20:29:54
Post Tools
Nernstian59 wrote on 12/22/24 at 00:27:09:
the video book review by IM Andras Toth, who was quite effusive in his praise of the book, going so far as to anoint it as his Book of the Year, even though there were still more than nine months left in 2024 at that time.

IM Toth was close but not quite on the mark. Winning Chess Middlegames Volume 2 placed third in chess.com's Book of the year Award, announced yesterday. The winner was The Unknown Fischer by Cyrus Lakdawala. I'm guessing that its victory may have been at least partly the result of appealing to a wider audience plus the enduring fascination that Fischer holds for many chess fans.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1959
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #54 - 12/28/24 at 11:09:26
Post Tools
Quote:
... I suppose the truth of the Winaver at that sort of level is that you make it work by playing a lot of different lines.

I guess this accords with the tendency these days of strong GMs to sometimes play something crunchy once then move on. But then Pelletier had played ...Qc7 several times before Carlsen encountered it from him, and Carlsen (with or without trousers Grin) is usually very well prepared, so I'm a bit curious ...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2099
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #53 - 12/27/24 at 15:02:43
Post Tools
Ah, that should be real wisdom Smiley SF doesn't like 10 Be2 at all there. It seemingly decides that the the f5 strong point must be wiped out at all costs, and as soon as possible too.

So it goes g3, Bh3 x f5 and follows up with Nh4 to wipe out any reinforcements coming via e7. Also a4, sometimes o-o and other logical things.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4955
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #52 - 12/27/24 at 14:11:01
Post Tools
Lev Psakhis once upon a time (1992) wrote that 8. Nf3 "eases Black's task"; he continued with h5"!" 9. Qf4 c4 10. Be2 Nc6, which I see transposes to Gligoric-Wade 1951.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2099
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #51 - 12/27/24 at 09:29:58
Post Tools
Michael Ayton wrote on 12/26/24 at 09:15:06:

Re 8 Nf3, while I can believe this is a good move too, I'd imagine it can't be the strongest given Black can restrict white's KB with ...c4 (perhaps immediately -- why not?).


Well, going Bd3 just to swap it off on f5 isn't a triumph Smiley c4 is the SF main line (or Qa5 first), white gets a tempo on g4 vs the f5 knight and you get a very interesting position.

cf:
8 Nf3 Qa5 (or c4 then Qa5) 9 Bd2 c4 10 Qf4 Nc6 11 g4 Nfe7 12 h4 etc.

Not that it thinks that that's remotely awful for black, but it seems to the think the Q swap lines are fairly OK too.

cf 9.. Qc7, I suppose the truth of the Winaver at that sort of level is that you make it work by playing a lot of different lines. There's loads of 'almost sound' options....
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1959
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #50 - 12/26/24 at 09:15:06
Post Tools
Thanks again Nernstian -- this is very interesting. I must confess that, seeing no one playing 10 Bxf5 after 9 ...Qc7, I'd loosely assumed that strong players had determined that the engine assessment was wrong and that Black could remain reasonably solid despite having huge dark-square holes (assuming he has to go ...g6 at some point), so it's good to learn that Sokolov contradicts this. I wonder if Pelletier et al. underestimate the dangers, or, alternatively, reckon that they can hold the position anyway, even if it's rather thankless.

Re 8 Nf3, while I can believe this is a good move too, I'd imagine it can't be the strongest given Black can restrict white's KB with ...c4 (perhaps immediately -- why not?).


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2099
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #49 - 12/25/24 at 11:21:03
Post Tools
Same here with the Moles books, tremendous things Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nernstian59
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 230
Joined: 12/15/21
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #48 - 12/24/24 at 21:36:33
Post Tools
Michael Ayton - thanks for your kind words in Reply #46. I didn't have the good fortune of meeting John Moles, but I share your sentiment that he is indeed greatly missed. His book is one of the main reasons for my interest in the Winawer. 

As mentioned earlier, Sokolov's illustrative game for 7.Qg4 Nf5 is Stein-Petrosian. Thus after 8.Bd3 h5 9.Qf4, his main focus is on Petrosian's 9...Nc6. 

Sokolov does cover 9...Qc7, and your reference to Pelletier is quite pertinent here since Sokolov cites the game Carlsen-Pelletier, Biel 2005. Carlsen's 10.Ne2 allowed Pelletier to play 10...Ne7, when Sokolov notes "White now has little else but ...to go for 11.dxc5. Black was fine after 11...Nd7 12.0-0 Qxe5".

Sokolov does feel that White is better after 9.Qf4 since in many cases Black's kingside will prove to be vulnerable due to the h-pawn already being on h5. Thus he suggests after 9...Qc7, the improvement 10.Bxf5!, which doesn't appear in the Mega database. I don't feel like I'm really giving anything away by revealing this since 10.Bxf5 is Stockfish's top choice in the position, as is Sokolov's continuation 10...exf5 11.Ne2. He states that White has a clear edge since Black has problems stabilizing his kingside. He adds that it would have been helpful for Black if his pawn were on h6.

Unfortunately Sokolov doesn't even mention 9...Qh4, despite it being the most commonly played answer to 9.Qf4. The only other Black 9th move he covers is 9...Ne7 (analogous to Pelletier's 10...Ne7), but here he notes 10.dxc5 works much better, adding that 10.Nh3 looks good too.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2099
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #47 - 12/24/24 at 09:40:10
Post Tools
The fascinating thing about 7 Qg4 Nf5 is that modern SF points out that 8 Nf3 is quite a good move too Smiley No Q swaps! Almost no games in my database.

I'd actually have said that, in aggregate, the computers have made more lines playable than vice versa. They're so good at finding delicate ways to hold a draw.

Even in the Winaver, modern SF actually shows that 7 Qg4 o-o 8 Bd3 is just totally fine for black. 8 Bg5 of course is another matter.

And you do also find loads of sharp lines where you follow computer lines through chaos for 10-15 moves then discover it's still quite as messy as when you started! At that point the eval isn't very relevant.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1959
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #46 - 12/23/24 at 09:26:21
Post Tools
Great summary, Nernstian -- thanks for it. I was esp. interested to see that Sokolov covers 7 Qg4 Nf5. This was actually a speciality of John Moles, who I had the privilege of knowing -- he is sadly missed. Could you, within the bounds of propriety of course, tell us just a little what S. makes to this line? -- e.g. on 8 Bd3 h5 9 Qf4 does he cover/endorse 9 ...Qh4 or 9 ...Qc7. I'd casually assumed the former is better, but Pelletier's successes with the latter make me wonder!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nernstian59
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 230
Joined: 12/15/21
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #45 - 12/22/24 at 00:27:09
Post Tools
Returning for a moment to Replies 38-41 and Ivan Sokolov's recent book, Winning Chess Middlegames Volume 2, there still doesn't appear to be much information available about the content of the French Winawer chapter. The excerpt provided by the publisher, New in Chess, doesn't present any material. In Reply # 40, kylemeister did give a link to the video book review by IM Andras Toth, who was quite effusive in his praise of the book, going so far as to anoint it as his Book of the Year, even though there were still more than nine months left in 2024 at that time.

I now have the book and can provide some more details on the Winawer chapter beyond those that can be gleaned from Toth's video.  Throughout the book, Sokolov delves into middlegames stemming from a limited set of pawn structures that arise from 1.e4 openings. He uses one or more illustrative games to discuss the middlegame play developing from each structure. Sokolov may give a few introductory remarks for a game before proceeding with the game itself.  In other cases, he'll present a diagram of a middlegame position from the game, pointing out salient features and plans for each side before digging into the actual moves.

For the Winawer chapter, the structure is the one produced by the moves 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 and usually but not always 6...Ne7. At an early point, Sokolov states that he won't be covering the Poison Pawn "because there are too many theoretical ('computer prep') lines here". He doesn't elaborate, but seems to suggest that the Poison Pawn's concrete, engine-derived lines aren't especially amenable to his more strategic approach to analyzing the middlegames.

With the Poison Pawn eliminated, Sokolov examines a variety of Winawer lines in twelve illustrative games. The largest share of his attention goes to 7.Qg4 0-0, which is covered in four games. The remaining eight games are each devoted to a single variation. Among these are 6...Qa5 (the Portisch-Hook), the newly fashionable 6...Nc6, the popular 7.h4, the old 7.Qg4 Nf5 (covered with the well-known Stein-Petrosian, URS ch Moscow 1961), and 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Bd3. This last sequence can veer into play with some similarity to the Poison Pawn, but Sokolov only considers the continuation 8...c4, closing the position and producing much more of a maneuvering game.

With the exclusion of the Poison Pawn, one might expect more emphasis on the Positional Winawer lines originating from 7.Nf3 or 7.a4. However, Sokolov covers only one of these: 7.Nf3 Bd7 8.dxc5, which came into prominence when Spassky played it three times as White in his 1977 Candidates match with Korchnoi. Sokolov notes Spassky's employment of this line and also refers to the tripled pawns as "Irish pawns", a term I don't recall encountering before. (A bit of Googling indicates that Tony Miles was its inventor in a bit of tongue-in-cheek humor from the first issue of the short-lived magazine International Chess).

While Sokolov doesn't include the Poison Pawn, he does cover a related line arising from the Classical Winawer: 6...Qc7 7.Qg4 f5 8.Qg3 Ne7 9.Qxg7 Rg8 10.Qxh7 cxd4. As Sokolov mentions, Botvinnik tried this line as Black against Tal in both of their world championship matches. I've had an interest in it ever since I saw John Moles' analysis in his book French Defence - Main Line Winawer (1975). Sadly, the variation is included in Sokolov's book because it's the centerpiece of a section titled "Well-known lines killed by technology". Sokolov states in this section that modern engines "are going to put an end to some of the sharp tactical lines in the Winawer". Using the game Anand-Curt Hansen, Middelfart 2003, Sokolov shows that this is the case for the old Botvinnik line. After Black misses his one chance to obtain counterplay following an Anand inaccuracy on move 13, Hansen is simply pushed off the board with no real chance to put up resistance. Sokolov's point is that modern engines can navigate this complex line and take full advantage of the open position and the bishop pair. While it's disappointing to see just how grim Black's prospects are, I can't say it's a total surprise since earlier in this thread, I pointed to this line in response to FreeRepublic's comment that "Some variations seem to wilt after computer-assisted review". (See Replies #13-14).

Sokolov extends his collection of now-dubious lines to include those where Black snatches a pawn and tries to rely on his solid structure to weather the ensuing storm. The author notes that previously such positions might be evaluated as unclear or as White having compensation for the lost material, but today's engines (and players who are training with them) are much better at making use of the initiative, resulting in the positions being judged as simply better for White. 

The remaining illustrative game in the chapter originates from a different Classical Winawer line; namely, 6...Qc7 7..Qg4 f5 8.Qg3 cxd4 9.cxd4 Ne7 10.Bd2. This particular continuation has a reputation as being more solid and dependable than its Poison-Pawn-related cousin played in the Botvinnik-Tal matches. Sokolov uses Kasparov-Short, Novgorod 1997 to examine this position. Curiously, Sokolov doesn't mention 10.Ne2, which scores extremely well and has put this particular Classical Winawer line on life support (e.g., see Reply #14 in this discussion).  Perhaps he's not overly concerned with such opening details since the focus of his book is on the middlegame.

Shortly after the positive comments in Toth's video were posted, Sokolov's book also received a highly complimentary review in Matthew's Sadler's column in New in Chess magazine. I agree with both Sadler and Toth on the quality of Sokolov's annotations. With the merit of his work beyond doubt, the one question remaining for the Winawer devotee is if Sokolov's book is worth buying just to get one of the six chapters. 

Possibly a more cost-effective alternative is Sokolov's FritzTrainer DVD from ChessBase, Understanding Middlegame Strategies Vol.8 - French - Winawer. Except for a "bonus" game on the Steinitz Variation, this DVD is devoted entirely to the Winawer. A quick look at its contents on the ChessBase site indicates that Sokolov isn't doing a video version of his book. Out of the seven Winawer games he covers on the DVD, only one is also in the book. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nernstian59
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 230
Joined: 12/15/21
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #44 - 03/03/24 at 22:18:59
Post Tools
nestor - Thanks for the information. For some reason, I was suspecting that Krishnater's suggestion would be something other than 6...Ne7. Perhaps because the list of chapters referred to the "Winawer main line" rather than the "Main Line Winawer". At any rate, 6...Nc6 was initially a surprise to me. On further reflection, it's understandable since the move has become popular in the last couple years.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nestor
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 141
Location: London
Joined: 05/10/09
Gender: Male
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #43 - 03/03/24 at 08:26:05
Post Tools
As far as I know Krishnater proposes 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Nc6. I looked at this for myself some years ago, but I never got it on the board as very few of my opponents played 3.Nc3 and nobody played 4.e5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nernstian59
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 230
Joined: 12/15/21
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #42 - 03/02/24 at 21:51:01
Post Tools
Getting back to The French Defense Revisited and Reply #37 specifically, I was hoping that additional information on the relative merits of 7...Qc7 and 7...Qa5 vs 7.h4 might eventually be obtained from Beat the French Winawer Variation by Kotronias and Ivanov. This book supposedly recommends meeting the Winawer with 7.h4 and has been displayed on the "Expected" page of the Thinkers Publishing website for quite some time.  However, I recently saw that this page was undated in February, and the Winawer book is no longer shown.  An email inquiry to the publisher has gone unanswered, so it's looking like the book has been cancelled. On a more positive note, Modern Chess has just released Modern French Defense: Complete Repertoire for Black by IM Kushager Krishnater. It appears to be a video course that was originally released by thechessworld, but the Modern Chess version has the advantage of having the variations available in PGN form as well.  Krishnater recommends the Winawer, but it's not clear to me from the chapter list for the course if he's covering 7.h4 or avoiding it with something like the Portisch-Hook variation (6...Qa5).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nernstian59
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 230
Joined: 12/15/21
Re: The French Defense Revisited
Reply #41 - 02/09/24 at 23:13:57
Post Tools
kylemeister - Thanks for pointing out that video! It's nice to have some details about what Sokolov covers in his Winawer chapter.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo