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Normal Topic What do QGA players do against 1.d4 2.Nf3 or 1.c4? (Read 1954 times)
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Re: What do QGA players do against 1.d4 2.Nf3 or 1.c4?
Reply #9 - 06/26/24 at 18:10:00
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Thank you for the info.  I first encountered the concept of pairing QGA and 2.Nf3 Bf5 (and 2.Bf4 Bf5) in a video/pgn course, "QGA Mastermind," by IM Milovan Ratkovic.  IM Christof Sielecki covered the Baltic lines in his Chessable course on the Triangle Slav, and GM Bezgodov wrote a book on 2...Bf5, The Liberated Bishop Defence.
  

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Kerangali
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Re: What do QGA players do against 1.d4 2.Nf3 or 1.c4?
Reply #8 - 06/12/24 at 17:03:09
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re Bacrot:
He will make a repertoire book by end 2024 with these lines. It is the sequel (vol 2) of S'entrainer aux Echecs [Practice Chess](vol. 1), so far French only, issued 2023. His books are unusual since in vol1, he has the commendable aim of taking false beginners or online players up to 1800 classical FIDE with selected training positions (not the play-and-win kind), and in vol2 he will add up a Black repertoire based on Classical Sicilian againt e4 and Bf5 systems (when safe) against 1.d4. He says this is good enough up to 2300+ FIDE, and demonstrates the lines while streaming his Titled Tuesdays (and more, but all in French) on his Twitch:baki83a and Youtube:bacrot channels. While not a core bullet player, he holds his own again the strongest players and especially shines in endgames. Many valuable insights and great judgement, but again, only in French.
  
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Re: What do QGA players do against 1.d4 2.Nf3 or 1.c4?
Reply #7 - 04/13/24 at 20:20:05
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Kerangali wrote on 04/09/24 at 12:05:02:
Hi,
didn't mean to sound dismissive of the QGA. It is indeed narrow, but GM Bacrot (who plays both QGA and QGD) has a good piece of advice for practical play around QGA for Black:

***

So basically it's the QGA against 1.d4 d5 2.c4, and ...Bf5 systems against deviations not threatening an immediate Qb3. It is surprisingly efficient, e.g. 1.b3 d5 2.Bb2 Bf5 is totally OK for Black.

Interesting. Where did Bacrot recommend this?
  

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Re: What do QGA players do against 1.d4 2.Nf3 or 1.c4?
Reply #6 - 04/09/24 at 12:05:02
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Hi,
didn't mean to sound dismissive of the QGA. It is indeed narrow, but GM Bacrot (who plays both QGA and QGD) has a good piece of advice for practical play around QGA for Black:
- play 1.d4 d5 and of course, the QGA after 2.c4. [in his free blurb on modern-chess QGA repertoire for Black, Cheparinov notes that Black has no thoretical but also no practical problems to speak of. He goes for 3.e4 e5 which is now well studied, and notes that in the classical main line with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 e6 5.Bxc4 c5 (or ...Nc6 first, small differences) 6.0-0 Nc6 7.Nc3 a6, the popular 8.a4 is harmless (his words) and White should consider 8.d5 instead]
- against 1.d4 d5 without 2.c4, play 2...Bf5 and follow up with ...e6 and Nf6. For instance: 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Bf5 3.e3 e6 4.Nf3 Nf6 (holding back ...c5 on purpose) and now:
    a) if 5.c4 then 5...Bxb1 6.Qa4+ Qd7 (computers prefer 
           6.Rxb1 Bb4+ 7.Ke2(forced) Bd6 but it's awkward) 
           7.Qxd7 Nxd7 8.Exb1 Bb4+ Kd1 =
    b) if 5.Nbd2, then 5.Nbd7 (not allowing the reverse tactic 
        5...c5 6.Bxb8)
    c) if 5.Bd3, maybe 5...Bb4+ 6.c4 Bxd3 and 7.cxb4 Bxb1 
        8.Rxb1 c6 9.0-0 0-0 is possible. Doubled b-pawns don't 
        help for minority attack.

Against 1.Nf3 Bacrot advises 1...d5 intending 2...Bf5 (except for 2.c4 d4), against 1.c4 he goes 1...e5 and either the Adhiban gambit 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e4 4.Ng5 c6!?, or development with Nc6, Nf6/Bc5/d6 against g3 systems.

So basically it's the QGA against 1.d4 d5 2.c4, and ...Bf5 systems against deviations not threatening an immediate Qb3. It is surprisingly efficient, e.g. 1.b3 d5 2.Bb2 Bf5 is totally OK for Black.
  
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Re: What do QGA players do against 1.d4 2.Nf3 or 1.c4?
Reply #5 - 06/02/23 at 19:40:24
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Kerangali wrote on 05/25/23 at 21:05:07:
In fact, the QGA is a narrow choice, usually a secondary system for Black.
The players who adopt the QGA as their secondary system, do they generally tend to have the QGD as their primary system? What makes me think this is that I see some similarities between Black's moves in the QGA (1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 e6 5.Bxc4 c5 6.O-O) and the QGD (1.d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3), and I see that the QGD can transpose into a QGA if Black plays ...dxc4.
  
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Re: What do QGA players do against 1.d4 2.Nf3 or 1.c4?
Reply #4 - 05/26/23 at 18:13:46
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katar wrote on 05/26/23 at 00:35:01:
The great QGA proponent Rublevsky seems to favor 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 and 1.c4 e5.

True, but Rublevsky usually answers 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 with 3...c6, which is a different kettle of fish. Also 1.c4 e5 is fine for black, but I think 1.c4 c5 is more likely to appeal to the typical QGA player.

Black's choice after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 should be informed by what they do after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3. There are actually a bunch of moves for black here: 3...Nf6, 3...c6, 3...e6, and 3...a6 are all important, and 3...c5 is possible. QGA players who want a main line used to answer 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 with a careful 3...e6, which negates 2...Nf6 on account of 3.c4 dxc4 and black is move ordered. Black is equally move ordered if they would have chosen any of the "other" third moves besides 3...Nf6. Recently more popular after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 is a careful 3...Nf6 4.e3 e6 5.Bxc4 a6, and if this is black's intention there is nothing wrong with 2...Nf6. Also if black wants 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bg4!? then only 2...Nf6 will do. Sometimes I play 2...e6 which I think is a reliable move. 3.c4 dxc4 is a QGA, 3.Bf4 Bd6 and 3.Bg5 Be7 are not the typical London/Torre white is expecting, and other moves black can play classically. Perhaps 3.e3 is a bit dry from black's point of view, therefore ... More often I play the ambitious 2...c5!? when white can pose problems only with 3.c4!. But weaker players never do this, usually it's 3.e3 cxd4!? 4.exd4 Nc6 with a type of Caro-Kann, else it's 3.c3 cxd4!? 4.cxd4 Nc6 with an Exchange Slav -- my favorite opening for black, but I'm strange that way.

After 1.c4 I have been known to "force" a QGA with 1...e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxc4?! which Steinitz used occasionally but not many players since then -- for good reason. Not really recommendable but so far I have had good luck with it. 1...Nf6 is right out because of 2.d4 and black is move ordered, although I also play the Slav (and certain Caro-Kanns as mentioned) so I have further options of 1...c6 or 1...Nf6 2.d4 c6. White's threat of 2.d4(!) after 1.c4 really limits black's choices if they don't want to be move ordered out of a QGA, so it comes down to "preventing" the threat with 1...e5 or 1...c5, or having a second defense ready against the Queen's Gambit.
  
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Re: What do QGA players do against 1.d4 2.Nf3 or 1.c4?
Reply #3 - 05/26/23 at 08:17:43
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Kerangali wrote on 05/25/23 at 21:05:07:
Long story short, you can't expect a QGA after 1.c4 or 1.Nf3, especially if White goes c4/Nf3/e3. Only KID players are immune to early move orders. Against 1.c4 it's simpler to play non-transpo moves such as 1...e5 or 1...c5, but against 1.Nf3 there's no such shortcut. In fact, the QGA is a narrow choice, usually a secondary system for Black. Why not play the Tarrasch instead? it's compact, entertaining (e.g. Dubov line with Bc5) and near-universal.


On one thing you are correct, the QGA is a narrow choice in that you can't force a transposition.  Nevertheless it is a fine system, and it is useless and counter-productive to suggest and entirely different defence to 1.d4.  Let's stay on topic please.  Thanks, from a past trangressor  Cheesy
  
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Re: What do QGA players do against 1.d4 2.Nf3 or 1.c4?
Reply #2 - 05/26/23 at 00:35:01
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The great QGA proponent Rublevsky seems to favor 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 and 1.c4 e5.
I have another question for you.  What does a baseball player do at a dance recital?  Life is full of conundrums. Smiley
  

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Re: What do QGA players do against 1.d4 2.Nf3 or 1.c4?
Reply #1 - 05/25/23 at 21:05:07
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Long story short, you can't expect a QGA after 1.c4 or 1.Nf3, especially if White goes c4/Nf3/e3. Only KID players are immune to early move orders. Against 1.c4 it's simpler to play non-transpo moves such as 1...e5 or 1...c5, but against 1.Nf3 there's no such shortcut. In fact, the QGA is a narrow choice, usually a secondary system for Black. Why not play the Tarrasch instead? it's compact, entertaining (e.g. Dubov line with Bc5) and near-universal.
  
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What do QGA players do against 1.d4 2.Nf3 or 1.c4?
05/25/23 at 19:20:01
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Essentially:
- If Black plays the KID, then Black can play Nf6, g6, Bg7, O-O, d6 against everything.
- If Black plays the QGD, then Black can play d5, e6, Nf6, Be7, O-O against everything.
- If Black plays the Slav ...Bf5, then Black can play d5, c6, Nf6, Bf5, e6 against everything.
- If Black plays the Slav Chebanenko (Chameleon), then Black can play d5, c6, Nf6, a6 against everything.
- If Black plays the Semi-Slav, then Black can play d5, c6, Nf6, e6 against everything.
Everything other than 1.e4. Though I mean technically Black could also play the same against 1.e4. Against 1.e4, the KID is essentially the Modern-Pirc, the QGD is essentially the French, the Slav ...Bf5 is essentially the Caro-Kann.
In some order. Like if White plays 1.c4, Black won't be able to immediately play 1...d5, Black will first have to play 1...e6 (QGD) or 1...c6 (Slav) and only then 2...d5.

But if Black plays the QGA, what does Black do when White doesn't play exactly 1.d4 d5 2.c4? What does Black do when White plays 1.c4 or 1.Nf3 or 1.d4 2.Nf3? Does Black play ...d5 and then whenever White plays c4 Black immediately answers ...dxc4? Would this transpose to lines of the QGA? What if White postpones playing c4 or never plays c4? What if White plays c4 but not d4?
  
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