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Normal Topic Some conclusions about current state of Dragon (Read 2818 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Some conclusions about current state of Dragon
Reply #8 - 10/15/23 at 13:50:05
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Re 9. Bc4 Nxd4 10. Bxd4 Be6, I noticed that Sindarov-Nakamura today stayed with the ancient Tal-Larsen game until White's 23rd (23. c3 instead of Tal's 23. b3). Draw agreed on move 30.
  
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cathexis
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Re: Some conclusions about current state of Dragon
Reply #7 - 10/13/23 at 16:14:56
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Quote:
About banning computers its not that easy. Many modern opening books has computer evalutions in the text so are books going to be banned as well? Databases should probelby been banned as well since many lines can be looked up in databases. And if books are banned so should opening videos and other digial resouches.

Many endgames would be prolonged for a very long time as well since tablebases claims needs to be removed as well. Even today many players rated 2400+ prolongs delays dead draw position with no imbalances for more than 100 days, if no tabelbases claims exists it could well 10 time delay times.


A very valid point, my friend. [edit: I guess CC play was just a nice way to play more games where ever you were, as well as not having to go to an official club for a "rated" game.]
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Some conclusions about current state of Dragon
Reply #6 - 10/13/23 at 08:42:33
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I did not play Correspondence Chess before computer era but I can tell that most IM or higher took titles in the old days. Most exeptions are high FIDE Elo that allowed some players to play in closed raiting based elite events from start where  Correspondece Chess Elo both gets high start Elo automatically if normal results and Elo stays high if normal results by only playing in closed high rated based events since draws cost nothing. Modern computers has made them overrated and many other are completly underrated thus inflation and deflation at same time. 

Long time controls is also a bit related to old none internet time with pysical post mail when analyse was done without computer help. When computer became better some players even used 4 computers analyse four candidate move over the night but no one does that today since hardware and software are better today.

About banning computers its not that easy. Many modern opening books has computer evalutions in the text so are books going to be banned as well? Databases should probelby been banned as well since many lines can be looked up in databases. And if books are banned so should opening videos and other digial resouches.

Many endgames would be prolonged for a very long time as well since tablebases claims needs to be removed as well. Even today many players rated 2400+ prolongs delays dead draw position with no imbalances for more than 100 days, if no tabelbases claims exists it could well 10 time delay times.
« Last Edit: 10/13/23 at 10:52:05 by bragesjo »  
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cathexis
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Re: Some conclusions about current state of Dragon
Reply #5 - 10/11/23 at 12:58:01
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The devil in me causes me to wonder: What if they just banned use of chess engines in CC? If the players cheated anyway, then what is the point of further competition? If the players complained, "But we can't play at top level without them!" Then what is the point of further competition? If the level of play fell to about top-level OTB play, then what is the point of further competition?

I wonder - has anyone ever published a study of top-level CC results vs. top-level OTB results, but in the pre-computer era? Was there ever any "advantage" to having lots more time for each move? Or perhaps just another fun way to enjoy the game? It seems to be an artifact of another time and place.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Some conclusions about current state of Dragon
Reply #4 - 10/11/23 at 08:00:38
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Ok, I can see that getting depressing quite quickly!

Certainly, the computers have got so, so strong - and strategically too - over the past few years that I do slightly wonder what is left for correspondence.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Some conclusions about current state of Dragon
Reply #3 - 10/10/23 at 10:07:09
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Its a bit complicated. Accelerated move order allows even more extra options like Re8, never looked at this with computer yet.

But if we take Giris lines, the Bc4 Yugoslav draw line is more fun than the 9 000 Yugoslav draw line , black can in many lines play on for while even in pawn down but with the better minor piece.

Im getting bored by same endgame in every games white can play on forever. And white decides when its  time to take a draw.
I am even thinking of giving up KID in Correspondece Chess for same reasons, lead to same drawish endgame in about every game. 
And think about give it up  Correspondece Chess completly.

Both the 9 000 yugoslav endgame and the KID endgame have in common that engines initially thinks white is a bit better untill last theory move is played than called equal in borh cases.

EDIT spelling
« Last Edit: 10/10/23 at 22:06:01 by bragesjo »  
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MartinC
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Re: Some conclusions about current state of Dragon
Reply #2 - 10/10/23 at 08:00:04
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It doesn't sound like you'll have fascinating games vs the 9 Bc4 Yugoslav with that drawing line.

I do actually find rather awe inspiring (and slightly depressing?) that even there they've now found a pretty reliable way to kill things Smiley
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Some conclusions about current state of Dragon
Reply #1 - 10/09/23 at 12:48:45
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I have completed a couple of additional games in the same 9000 endgame vs hieger rated now, its no point of showing more almost identical draws so I will not post anymore links.

I have some ongoing games in different events as well. 

I have thought a bit about it and I start to belive that MNBs suggestion of a combo Kalachnikov and Accelerarated Dragon lead to more fun games. The idea is Kalachnikov in first hand but to play g6 vs any Nc3 before d4 lines and even 2 Nc3 g6. Thus  no more 9 000 yogoslav and no Marocy Bind proper and only tame lines vs Dragon and of course Bc4 yugoslav. Hower some lines is needed vs Rossolimo.
  
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bragesjo
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Some conclusions about current state of Dragon
09/05/23 at 11:41:13
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I have played several games now following Giris lines as base. This includes a several Correspondence games at ICCF and lots of Lichess games (including Lichess Bundesliga div 1) and a few over the board games. Giris lines are extremly well analysed and works excellent even in Correspondence Chess. 

My conclusions are that Giris Bc4 Yugoslav recommendation Nxd4 Bxd4 Be6 has more or less ruled out Bc4 Yugoslav as a winning try at ICCF. Only problem black cant win either vs right play. Both sides can go wrong in online blitz games but is unlikely a higher levels.

About 9 000 Yugoslav with Bd4 line that everyone think is a refutation, I have got a several easy draws at ICCF in that line vs titled players and some player who would easy get title if only playing in events with norms chanses. Whites position is more fun and more easy to handle and my prefernce vs Dragon as white as well but if black knows 3 key lines 6 moves depth where latest books mets the endgame is a draw.  Cheparniovs new ModernChess base has a novelty in one of the keylines assesing the position as += while I played two very easy draw in that very improvment in Correspodence Chess after a move he did not consider.

I orignal intended to make annotations here but I keep having ongoing games so I can make no comments. But I can show some public links to some of the my games in Dragon, they are easy to find anyway.  I have also plays some draws with the white pieces vs Dragon as well. This post is not critic vs any author since books and bases are made fro over the baord games not Correspondence Chess. Its not anty critic vs any player either.


https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1399303
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1385024
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1385026
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1385013
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1383220
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1391486
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1399313
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1408256
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1408254

I belive that in Correspondence Chess the Dragon is the new ultimate drawing weapon, very few concrete lines so impossible to confuse positions and easy to look up in book. But on the other hand at ICCF there are no good openings to generate winning chanses as black vs good opposition unlesss white takes risks or plays dubios lines.  For those that dont play Correspondence Chess the modern Chess engines with NNUE AI has sort of screwed up rating system and if both players have at least 2100 Elo is usually a draw regardless of rating differenses and most IM or higher got thsese titles long before todays computer standard or has high Fide Elo so could play in elite events from start where rating also stays high by only playing in closed rating based events. It more easy to draw a 2600 player (done it multiple times) than to win any games over any 2200+ players and I predict draw rate will increase even more next year as engines and hardware gets better every year so it will be even more difficuelt to win vs any 2000+ in the future. I still play Correspondence Chess since I am interested in opening theory and plays more mainlines theire than in over the board games and I got a CCM title since I was lucky that I met lots of high rated in one events and only needed draws and draw every game, in that entire 11 player event there was only one player who maneged to win a single game. I also some how manage to win 2 games in a dedicated CCM event for an got a norm there as well.
  
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