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Normal Topic Koltanowski with 9.b4 (Read 325 times)
MartinC
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Re: Koltanowski with 9.b4
Reply #4 - 06/30/24 at 09:34:22
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Look, SF gives it +0.15 or something, it yields interesting positions and non trivial play.

That's more than enough to merit playing it if you like the look of the positions! 

If you're mostly playing vs badly prepared players then you'll maybe do slightly better over time playing more critical ideas. Otherwise, do whatever Smiley
  
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Pcal
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Re: Koltanowski with 9.b4
Reply #3 - 06/29/24 at 04:37:02
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kylemeister wrote on 06/26/24 at 11:50:17:
Pcal wrote on 06/26/24 at 03:50:00:


Maybe something like the Reverse Zvjaginsev; 

But it seems Pcal was referring to 9. e4. As to 10...h6, I still recall the late Jeremy Silman writing about 34 years ago that he considered it a complete answer to the Colle. (That was in notes to a game of his 1990 match against Colle specialist IM Doug Root.)


I'll take anything over the Koltanowski Phoenix Attack... lol
From here on out I'm just calling it The Koltamoski 9.b4 Var,
So far Rudel's analysis is very solid.. going over the lines with SF 16.1.. not seeing anything bogus.  (about halfway through)

Yes Sir, the Nc6 mainline.  Silman's 10...h4 in the old main line of 9.e4   I'm not going to say it refutes 9.e4 but is sure comes close.  Black equalizes but .... in a position with serious tension on both sides.  11. b4 yields nothing for White if Black is up on his Nc6 theory. 11.Bc2  IMO ...things get tricky, White is able to get some play in the position  by knowing his/her way around 12.h3  or 12 Kh1  (emphasis on "some")  Black's Bishop sitting at c5 with the threat of his/her knight at f6 going to g4 attacking f2 or (attacking by way of h5 then to g3 )  disrupts White position really bad IMHO   

& I still can't see a way thorough 10...Bb6  where Black ignores white's threats on h7 altogether (due to Black's set up , the Greek gift is not really being a threat with correct play) 

I'm finding with the 9.b4 var, none of the above happens. White either pushes the queen side pawns down the board disrupting Black's set up, or opens diagonals for the bishops e.g.  a1-h8, a2-g8 & a3-f8 disrupts Black center with attacks like playing his  knight to g5... (attacking f7) attacks Black center from the flank by way of the queenside  sometimes both, sometimes all three... Black just never gets the dynamic play seen when White plays 9.e4. 

So far... so good. 
Yet, It's too soon for me to be committal...9...Bb6  could be an issue  Not a lot of master games out there even after 10yrs ... 

What led me off on this Chess journey was the game

Wei Yi vs Vidit Santosh Gujrathi
Tata Steel Masters (2024), Wijk aan Zee NED, rd 13.

Both super GMs tied ... winner shares 1 place (hence the purse) loser.. get's chump change and 2nd place. 

Gujrathi as Black didn't play the Nc6 main line and choose the Nd7 line 

Why? 

Was it 9.b4?   IDK... 

If 9.b4 is solid,  it puts the Colle Koltanowski back in my repertoire.   
 
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Koltanowski with 9.b4
Reply #2 - 06/26/24 at 11:50:17
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Pcal wrote on 06/26/24 at 03:50:00:
(Don't care for the moniker ... maybe the Reverse Meran, or the White Meran ..IMO sounds better... but that's a side bar) 

Maybe something like the Reverse Zvjaginsev; I'm reminded of Larry Kaufman attributing 8. Bd3 Bd6 in the Meran to him when he advocated it in his first repertoire book 20 years ago.

MartinC wrote on 06/26/24 at 09:08:51:
FWIW 8 e4 does look 'wrong' somehow. 8 .. cd 9 cd and then 9 .. e5 is apparently totally equal, or 9 .. dxe4 and 10.. Be7 or 10.. h6

Incidentally that line with 10...Be7 (given as equal by such as Pachman and Nunn) can also be reached via the French; it appears in the book Fighting the French: A New Concept.

But it seems Pcal was referring to 9. e4. As to 10...h6, I still recall the late Jeremy Silman writing about 34 years ago that he considered it a complete answer to the Colle. (That was in notes to a game of his 1990 match against Colle specialist IM Doug Root.)
« Last Edit: 06/26/24 at 16:25:01 by kylemeister »  
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MartinC
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Re: Koltanowski with 9.b4
Reply #1 - 06/26/24 at 09:08:51
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Modern SF will give you a much better idea than almost anything else Smiley Maybe a database and/or some Engine vs Engine games, especially with mixed strength to see if there's scope to outplay people.

FWIW 8 e4 does look 'wrong' somehow. 8 .. cd 9 cd and then 9 .. e5 is apparently totally equal, or 9 .. dxe4 and 10.. Be7 or 10.. h6

Even those IQP positions don't look very wonderful.

8 dxc5 and then 9 e4 is a much more common way to do on my database, doesn't seem that black can liquidate so you'll get a game at least. Probably not one to scare black, but that's hard to do these days!

Or 9 b4 of course, SF does think that's the best move so it very likely is.
  
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Pcal
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Koltanowski with 9.b4
06/26/24 at 03:50:00
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1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Nbd2 Bd6 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.0-0 0-0 8. dxc5 Bxc5 9. b4!?   

Picked up a PDF of Rudel's  The Koltanowski Phoenix Attack.

(Don't care for the moniker ... maybe the Reverse Meran, or the White Meran ..IMO sounds better... but that's a side bar) 


It's been about 10 yrs since the line was put forth, what's the consensuses?  yes  or no? 

Practical .... Not practical? 

I've going over Rudel's analysis  with Stockfish 16.1 ... and I'm not I'm seeing anything that negates the line.  (about half way through) However ....  IMO the positions and how one handles them are way different that standard Koltanowski play book... very little tactics surrounding the Greek gift and no queenside majority pawn endgame...   

As far as I know there hasn't been any improvements found in the 8.e4 line.  Correct?  10...h6 still refutes the Koltanowski  right?  

  
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