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Normal Topic What to play against fianchetto English? (Read 732 times)
TonyRo
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Re: What to play against fianchetto English?
Reply #7 - 11/01/24 at 18:16:44
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 11/01/24 at 03:43:19:
Depending on your 1.e4 defense it might even be worth considering 1.Nf3 g6!? where the Pirc/Modern is no longer so scary for black.

Or the Hyper-Accelerated Dragon after 1.Nf3 g6 2.e4 c5.  Grin Still, that seems like more work than necessary relative to the other options.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: What to play against fianchetto English?
Reply #6 - 11/01/24 at 03:43:19
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It's curious that Vachier Lagrave and Paravyan have the same queenside repertoire. 1.d4 Grünfeld, 1.c4 e5, 1.Nf3 d5 and if 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 dxc4. This also gives them an easy answer to 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3.

The Grünfeld is one of the easiest openings for white to move order away from (while still retaining chances for an edge), and the QGA transposition is like cutting the Gordian knot: Black just learns a second opening. After all, white has also given something up (no direct 3.e4, and no subtle 3.e3).

TonyRo makes a good point about 1.c4 g6 (!), Fischer also used to play this way. Depending on your 1.e4 defense it might even be worth considering 1.Nf3 g6!? where the Pirc/Modern is no longer so scary for black. Another variation on the theme of allowing yourself to be move ordered into an opening you wouldn't play after 1.e4 or 1.d4, but where white has passed on the sharpest options.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: What to play against fianchetto English?
Reply #5 - 10/31/24 at 14:12:20
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I don't play the Grunfeld, but I can tell you that I reach similar positions as White via 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.O-O O-O 5.d4 d5 6.c4 and nowadays (my sample size is online blitz games in the 2300-2400 range) my opponents probably choose 6...c6 3 or 4 to 1 versus 6...dxc4. I don't see a ton of logic in choosing to risk a KID or a random variation of the Symmetrical English when you're going to reach the Fianchetto Grunfeld via a more conventional move order all the time and have to know it anyway. You're just creating more work for yourself. 

The other big thing about the Grunfeld is how you are meeting 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4. If I recall correctly more than one reputable source has recommend 1.c4 g6! as the easiest, intending 2.d4 Nf6 (of course), 2.Nc3 g6! (a good variation of the Symmetrical), and 2.e4 e5!?. Against 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4, I think you can either go into all the Neo-Grunfeld stuff with 2...g6 3.Nc3 d5, or just play more simply with 2...c5 and learn something there, e.g. 3.Nf3 d5!? and so on.
  
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TD
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Re: What to play against fianchetto English?
Reply #4 - 10/31/24 at 08:05:14
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FreeRepublic wrote on 10/30/24 at 21:31:27:
Good questions.

I think ...c6 has a lot of merit. As to the list of players provided, perhaps double-digits qualifies one as being a Gruenfeld player.

I am not an OTB Grunfeld player myself, but in correspondence I twice played 5...c6.
  
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TD
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Re: What to play against fianchetto English?
Reply #3 - 10/31/24 at 06:37:15
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/30/24 at 19:19:33:
I'm curious myself, but in present form the question is too fuzzy. 

The first task is to narrow down what is a "Grünfeld player"?

I didn't especially mean professional players. For that I could have looked in the databases myself. I just meant clubplayers, the readers from this (Grunfeld) Forum, who (regularly) play the Grunfeld. What do you guys play in the position I mentioned?
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: What to play against fianchetto English?
Reply #2 - 10/30/24 at 21:31:27
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Good questions.

I think ...c6 has a lot of merit. As to the list of players provided, perhaps double-digits qualifies one as being a Gruenfeld player.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: What to play against fianchetto English?
Reply #1 - 10/30/24 at 19:19:33
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I'm curious myself, but in present form the question is too fuzzy. 

The first task is to narrow down what is a "Grünfeld player"? I don't have a current database, but looking at database.chessbase.com , in a 500-game sample from 2024 after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5, the below players have had the black side at least twice. Which ones would you consider to be "Grünfeld players"? (There is no wrong answer.)

Vachier_Lagrave 59
Paravyan_______ 45
Duda___________ 31
Svidler________ 15
Abdusattorov___ 14
Mekhitarian____ 14
Giri___________ 13
Fedoseev_______ 12
Puranik________ 11
Ragger_________ 10
Mamedyarov_____ 9
Nepomniachtchi_ 9
Firouzja_______ 8
Navara_________ 8
Tari___________ 8
Antipov________ 7
Lagno__________ 7
Maghsoodloo____ 7
Sindarov_______ 7
Xiong__________ 7
Aronian________ 6
Carlsen________ 6
Chigaev________ 6
Gledura________ 6
Ivic___________ 6
Vakhidov_______ 6
Dubov__________ 5
Erigaisi_______ 5
Salem__________ 5
Shankland______ 5
Shevchenko_____ 5
Bernadskiy_____ 4
Deac___________ 4
Hansen_________ 4
Ivanchuk_______ 4
Lagarde________ 4
Le_Quang Liem__ 4
Rapport________ 4
Shirov_________ 4
Timofeev_______ 4
Grandelius_____ 3
Jones__________ 3
Li_Chao_B______ 3
So_____________ 3
Van_Foreest,Jor 3
Abasov_________ 2
Amin___________ 2
Areshchenko____ 2
Brunello_______ 2
Burke__________ 2
Iskanarov______ 2
Jumabayev______ 2
Kamsky_________ 2
Krysa__________ 2
Kuybokarov_____ 2
Madaminov______ 2
Moroni_________ 2
Nihal__________ 2
Siddharth______ 2
Tomczak________ 2
Troff__________ 2
Wei_Yi_________ 2
Woodward_______ 2
Xu_Xiangyu_____ 2
Zubov__________ 2
  
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TD
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What to play against fianchetto English?
10/30/24 at 09:22:30
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I don't know if this has been asked before (I guess it has), but what would (most) Grunfeld players play against 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.0-0 0-0 5.c4 (in any move order)? The dynamic d5 or the solid c6? Or transpose to the Symmetric English via c5? Or play d6, with the 'risk' of transposing to a Kings-Indian after d4?
  
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