Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match (Read 47964 times)
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #12 - 05/27/05 at 13:35:04
Post Tools
the idea of c6 is very interessent, and to markovich: c6 is generally a move played in every normal gunderam/tartakower or Teichmann defense, so c6 is natural, and force white to commit himself before deciding to put the Bf5 in the right square. This match will be theoricaly very interessent, because we get early in a nearly unknow territory after 7.g4 Be6 (Vieto's idea, where he underestimate black chance by saying -+ at this too early stage, I think they are =/+ eventually but not winning!) the main idea of that move order is to play the classic Ziegler with the knight on e5 after 7.Bc4 e6 8.0-0 Bg6 9.Bg5 Be7 =/+
Personnaly, I did not analyse the position deeply but I think that 7.g4 is ok, after Be6, I want Vieto show me the winning game for black after 8.Ne4 which I have already analysed a bit.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #11 - 05/27/05 at 12:51:44
Post Tools
I'm happy to see this match in progress.   It seems that active kibitzing is acceptable here, so I will put in my two cents!

After 6...e6  7. g4, I don't understand why Black would play 7...Ne4, seeking complications in a position where he is a pawn up and devoid of weaknesses.   Perhaps that's just another way of saying that I'm ignorant of this move's merits.

Also merely on principle, I am suspicious of ...c6.   Why play a move that does not directly contribute to one's development, without being forced to?

I do hope Bonsai plays 6...e6, for no better reason than that I would like to see a test of my view, expressed here before, that 7. g4 Bg6  8. Qf3 c6  9. g5 Nh5 is better for Black.

There is 8. Bg2, of course, but my understanding is that it's supposed to be better for Black.

Ah, in just the time it took to post that, Bonsai played ...c6.  Ah well, I guess the future will have to decide who is right about 9...Nh5 -- Markovich, or the Chesspub Forum!
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bonsai
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 622
Joined: 03/13/04
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #10 - 05/27/05 at 12:29:33
Post Tools
After looking at 6...e6 there seem to be a few unclear points that I am not entirely sure about. For example in the variation that Markovich once suggested 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 e6 7.g4 Bg6 8.Qf3 c6 9.g5 Nh5 where I at some point suggested that after 10.Bd3 Qxd4 11.Bxg6 Qxe5+ 12.Be4 the move 12...Bb4 would be an improvement, things do not seem all that clear after 13.0-0 now that I've looked a bit more deely at it. But maybe someone can me prove me wrong about these concerns.

So I'll go for the more solid 6...c6 and maybe we'll see whether we'll get a transposition to the Ziegler by 7.Bc4.
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
X
God Member
*****
Offline


Education is a system
of imposed ignorance.Chomsky

Posts: 571
Joined: 10/04/03
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #9 - 05/26/05 at 20:54:30
Post Tools
Vieto's 6...c6 idea looks very strong to me.  If white tries to avoid exchanges after 7.g4 Be6 followed by ...Nbd7, it looks like a good Alekhine for black, plus he's a pawn up!
  

Power to the People!&&http://www.gravel2008.us/           http://www.nationalinitiative.us/&&Mike Gravel for President 2008
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #8 - 05/26/05 at 16:55:14
Post Tools
Vieto: your 6..c6 move deserve attention, one day I had the same idea, to transpose to a good Ziegler variation for black after Bc4 e6 where Ne5 is not as good as Ng5 as Vieto said, and I asked Shoupal himself what idea he have about it, I think he have is home preparation against him, but I will analyse it, but what Iam sure is that is too optimistic to say -+ after 7.g4 Be6...

6..e6 is a standard move here, well-known of BDG players, 6..c6 is maybe the only move here wich can surprise a good BDG player, that's an interessent subjet, Im sure Shoupal or maybe myself, will find an improvement against 6..c6!?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bonsai
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 622
Joined: 03/13/04
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #7 - 05/26/05 at 16:32:35
Post Tools
Quote:
5...Bf5 6.Ne5 c6! looks like a refutation.
7.g4 Be6! -+
7.Bc4 e6 is a bad version of the Ziegler where White can't anymore play the Alchemy variation  Cry


6...c6 and 6...e6 are definitely the moves I'll have a look at. I'll have to wonder about whether white has any alternatives to 7.Bc4 after 6...c6 (e.g. 7.Bd3, 7.Bf4)... Getting a "normal" Ziegler without having to worry about the whole Alchemy mess is tempting, on the other hand 6...e6 is more of a development move and that white might sooner or later play Qf3 does not seem like such a problem... Well, I'll think about it for a day or two.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Vieto
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Arriba!

Posts: 15
Location: Grenoble
Joined: 07/23/04
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #6 - 05/26/05 at 15:39:50
Post Tools
5...Bf5 6.Ne5 c6! looks like a refutation.
7.g4 Be6! -+
7.Bc4 e6 is a bad version of the Ziegler where White can't anymore play the Alchemy variation  Cry
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #5 - 05/26/05 at 11:22:14
Post Tools
Of course 7..Ne4 is not the only sacrificial move, there is 7..Bxc2 and 7..Nfd7 but I dont garanty win for black but theses variations are interestings. There is 7..Be4 too, or the more classical Bg6 Smiley

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #4 - 05/26/05 at 07:39:58
Post Tools
Will we see the ultrasharp countergambit 6.Ne5 e6 7.g4 Ne4!? Only Bonsai can tell ....
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tracke
Senior Member
****
Offline


Introite tam etiam ibi
dei sunt

Posts: 467
Location: Kiel (GER)
Joined: 09/21/04
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #3 - 05/26/05 at 07:20:56
Post Tools
Many black players (including me) would concede that White has sufficient compensation after 6.Ne5!. 
The whole idea of O´Kelly 4...c6! (=+) is exactly to avoid this position by a different move order.
But sufficient compensation doesn´t mean that White can´t lose! Good Luck, Bonsai!

tracke  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sevenviolets
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 176
Location: Brno
Joined: 05/19/05
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #2 - 05/26/05 at 05:59:20
Post Tools
Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5

Yes, indeed, this is the best move. I´m very satisfied with this line. It is your turn, Bonsai.
« Last Edit: 05/26/05 at 16:18:57 by Sevenviolets »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #1 - 05/25/05 at 16:32:47
Post Tools
If I was playing the white piece, I would play the well know Ne5.

I quite like some variations of the Gunderam but the advantage of c6 is that it force white to commit, and g4 classical pawn attack fall here, but in the Gunderam the bishop is immediately a target, and white got what they wanted: attack were a plan is easier to find that in c6, as in the Shoupal-MnB match.

Gl for both, I will watch this game with great attention and comment it for sure!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bonsai
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 622
Joined: 03/13/04
Gender: Male
Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
05/25/05 at 14:53:28
Post Tools
It seems like a good time to start my anti-BDG game. As for introductions, I'm from Northern Germany near Hamburg (where I was studying maths at the time of most of my posts to the bdg threads) and nowadays I live and work (as a statistician) in Switzerland. Playing strength wise this should be open enough, my German DWZ (1983 - I need another 2 games to get a Swiss rating, probably 2050ish) is close enough to Patrick's Elo (1977), although his IECG rating is a bit higher than mine. 

I'd like to play the line that seems even more direct to me than the 5...c6 6.Bc4 Bf5. As Markovich has commented, why not 5...Bf5 right away? As someone who does play the Scandinavian every now and then this move seems most logical to me. Okay white does have some compensation for the pawn, but I must say that I doubt it's enough. Hence I am now putting that theory to a test.

So:
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo