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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM (Read 28875 times)
Knut S.
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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #29 - 10/22/05 at 13:46:14
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ChuckR, in my experience black usually plays the bishop to g4 as early as move 3 or 4, which is normally before white has played b3. So the normal c4, Qb3 plan is still available.
Nevertheless, the h3 plan might not be so bad either. 
For example, 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 Bg4 4. h3 Bh5 5. g4 Bg6 6. Ne5 Nbd7 7. h4 h6 8. Nxg6 fxg6 9. Bd3
  
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John Cox
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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #28 - 10/06/05 at 19:17:48
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In reply to ChuckR, you don't go b3 until they've gone ....e6, I think?
  
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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #27 - 10/04/05 at 20:02:09
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I have a general Zukertort question.  In the standard Colle, the way to reply to black placing a bishop on g4 is to push a pawn to c4 and then Qb3, attacking b7 and d5 and relieving the pin on the knight on f3.  But what do you do about this in the Zukertort?  You can't put the queen on b3.  Do you waste a tempo by putting a pawn on h3 before black can stick his bishop on g4? Shocked
  
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Nods and Winks
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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #26 - 08/29/05 at 16:15:06
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It was also interesting to see that the Ne5 move was more popular in this position but the move order was somewhat different. A slight change from post #21 could be 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 e6 3.e3 c5 4.Bd3 d5 5.b3 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Bb2 Nc6 and now instead of 8.a3 b6 9.Nbd2 Bb7 White could play 8.Nbd2 b6 9.Ne5 getting the move in one move earlier. On ...Nb4 can't White play Be2 and then a3 with tempo ? Does this change things ? The 9.Ne5 appears to be played more recently by players of 2300-2450 strength.
  
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Nods and Winks
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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #25 - 08/29/05 at 15:13:32
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This is a reply to post #21 which recaps an argument that 10. Ne5 is a dubious move in the Colle Zukertorte. This may very well be and the effort to illustrate this is very much so welcomed by me. I wondered if there could be another move here. I wondered about the possibility of 10.c4 instead of 10.Ne5. That is, 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 e6 3.e3 c5 4.Bd3 d5 5.b3 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Bb2 Nc6 8.a3 b6 9.Nbd2 Bb7 10.c4. I ran it through BigBase 2004 and found 32 games with this position. There were some familiar names on the White side as well -- Kovacevic, Ivkov, Bobotsov for example. White had 11 wins, 7 losses, and 14 draws for 56 %. The ECO codes for this line were E14 (majority), D05, and E11 (minority). Is White accepting a hanging pawns structure here ? The middlegame plans from this point should be an interesting study. Is this a d5 special opportunity here GM Prie ? It does have D05 !
  
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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #24 - 12/27/03 at 18:44:56
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The "Killer" recommendation is (1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5) 3.d5!?

Objectively it may not be that strong, but it is a bit annoying for Dutch players ...
  

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M.Nieuweboer
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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #23 - 12/27/03 at 17:56:45
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What do Summerscale and all those C-Z or London aficionado's recommend against 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5!? In my experience the Classical Dutch is a perfect way to embarass all those dry queen's pawn players.
  
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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #22 - 12/27/03 at 00:55:22
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I found the game.  I didn't quite give a good verbal description (fuzzy memories, carelessness, etc.).  Playing dxc4 immediately isn't so good, since it unnecessarily releases the tension.  I don't think Qh5 and c4 mix well.  (After your suggested ...d4, I think black is already much better.)  Here are some brief notes I made:

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 b6 5.b3 c5 6.Bb2 Nc6 7.0-0 Bb7 8.Nbd2 Be7 9.a3 0-0 10.Ne5 cxd4 11.exd4 Nxe5 12.dxe5 Nd7 13.c4?! 
[13.Qh5 h6 (13...g6) 14.c4 Nc5 15.Bc2 d4! 
A) 16.Rad1 d3 
A1) 17.Bb1 Qc7 18.b4 Na4 19.Ba1 (19.Bd4 Rfd8 20.Be3 Nc3) 19...a5; 
A2) 17.Nf3 17...Qc7 18.Bxd3 Nxb3; 
B) 16.b4 16...d3! 17.Bd1 (17.bxc5 dxc2 18.Nf3 Bxc5) 17...Ne4 18.Nf3 (18.Nxe4 Bxe4) 18...a5]
13...Nc5 14.Bc2 Rc8 15.b4 Nd7 16.Bb3 a5! 17.cxd5 exd5 18.bxa5 Nc5 19.axb6? 
[19.Nf3 Ba6 20.Re1 Nd3 21.Re2 bxa5³]
19...Ba6-+ 20.Re1 Nd3 21.Bd4 Nxe1 22.Qxe1 Bc5 23.Qe3 Qxb6 24.Nf3 Rfe8 25.Bxd5 Bxd4 26.Nxd4 Qc5 27.Qf3 Qc1+ 28.Qd1 Qxd1+ 29.Rxd1 Rxe5 30.Nc6 Rce8 31.g3 Bb7 32.Nb4 Rd8 33.Rd3 Re1+ 34.Kg2 0-1

Notice that in many lines, white has bad piece coordination.  I think white should leave the pawn on c2, so he can recapture the bishop on d3 if it is desirable.  The problem I have with white's position (at move 13) is that seems difficult to find a constructive plan.
  

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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #21 - 12/13/03 at 10:58:42
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Since were on page 2 (!) of this topic I'm going to show all of the move again.

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 e6 3.e3 c5 4.Bd3 d5 5.b3 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Bb2 Nc6 8.a3 b6 9.Nbd2 Bb7 10.Ne5 cxd4 11.exd4 Nex5 12.dex5 Nd7 13.Qh5 h6 14.c4!? and here I believe you stated your game continuted 14...Nc5 15.Bc2 dxc4 
(15...d4!?/unclear) 16.Nxc4 Rc8.  I certainly agree that White's pawns look very fragile but I believe the tactics of the position make this OK for White (perhaps due to his slight developement and space advantages).  After 17.Rad1 White can follow up with 18.Nd6 still leaving things very unclear to me, and if 17...Bd5 (17...Nd6 18.Rd2 also looks unclear)  then 18.Ne3 looks like a decent try.  Instead of 16...Rc8, perhaps Black can try the immediate 16...Ba6.  I still think 17.Rad1 might be OK for White though.  17...Qc7 18.Nd6 with Rac1 or b4 to follow looks wild but not clearly better for Black.  It's so complicated though I wouldn't be too surprised if Black does have a clear route to an advantage, perhaps if you find your game score...
  
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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #20 - 12/13/03 at 10:26:12
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That was exactly my idea against Ziatdinov!  And it failed miserably!

I don't have the game on my hands at the moment, but he got good play after Nc5 (upon which I retreated the bishop to c2), swapping of the c-pawn (upon I which I recaptured with the knight), followed by Rc8 and Ba6.  I remember the pin on my knight being very awkward (or the bishop's control of that diagonal).  Also, the move a3 was shown to be a weakness (weak square-b3).  I looked at this position for a while, and decided the position to be clearly better for black.

I don't think the c4 idea is that good, since it accentuates white's weaknesses on the queenside and white is not really in a position to contest black on the queenside with this pawn break.  Thus, I think it has the opposite effect of the intended neutralization, as it presents black with definite targets.  This is what bothers me about white's setup.  He seems to lack flexibilty on the center and the queenside, especially after committing to Ne5.

Maybe if I find the game, I'll type it up, but it isn't pretty...




  

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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #19 - 12/13/03 at 09:55:45
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I think the Luther game continues to show your point that an early Ne5 by White intent on a kingside attack is usually not a good idea.  In most of these lines your idea of c4, or sometimes dxc5 and c4 looks like a good way to achieve dynamically equal positions, reserving the Ne5 idea only when Black's play makes it clearly desireable.  Perhaps White can improve with 14.c4 (instead of 14.b4) allowing 14...Nc5, but allowing White to keep the Bishop with 15.Bc2.  The position is double-edged but at least it's a fight.
  
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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #18 - 12/11/03 at 01:44:22
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Does anyone have good ideas for white in this line (Summerscale-Luther)?
  

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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #17 - 10/18/03 at 03:32:19
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I found a game of possible interest that deviates from the Yermolinsky-Shaked game with 10.Ne5.  Here Luther plays the same plan that Ziatdinov played against me.

[Event "Oakham YM"]
[Site "Oakham"]
[Date "1990.03.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Summerscale,Aaron"]
[Black "Luther,Thomas"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D05"]
1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 e6 3.e3 c5 4.Bd3 d5 5.b3 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Bb2 Nc6 8.a3 b6 
9.Nbd2 Bb7 10.Ne5 cxd4 11.exd4 Nxe5 12.dxe5 Nd7 13.Qh5 h6 14.b4 a5 15.Qg4 Qc7 16.Nf3 axb4 
17.axb4 Rxa1 18.Bxa1 Ra8 19.Nd4 Nxe5 20.Nxe6 fxe6 21.Qxe6+ Nf7 22.Qg6 Rxa1 23.Rxa1 Qe5 24.Ra7 Qe1+ 
25.Bf1 Nd6 26.Qg4 Bf8 27.Qd7 Bc8 28.Qd8 Bb7 29.Qb8 Ne4 30.Qf4 Nd2 31.h3 Qxf1+ 32.Kh2 Ne4 
33.Qf5 Bd6+ 34.g3 Qxf2+ 35.Qxf2 Nxf2 36.Rxb7 Ne4 37.Rxb6 Bxg3+ 38.Kg2 Be5 39.Re6 Bc3 40.b5 Kf7 
41.Ra6 Be5 42.b6 Nc5 43.Ra7+ Ke6 44.Ra8 Nd7 45.Re8+ Kf7 46.Rc8 Nxb6 47.Rc6 Nd7 48.Ra6 Nf6 
49.Kf3 Kg6 50.Rc6 Bb2 51.Rc5 Bd4 52.Ra5 Bc3 53.Rc5 Bb4 54.Rb5 Bd6 55.Ra5 Be7 56.Ra7 Bb4 
57.Rb7 Bc3 58.Rc7 Ne4 59.Rd7 Ng5+ 60.Kg2 d4 61.Rd5 Kf6 62.h4 Ne6 63.Kf3 g6 64.h5 Ng5+ 
65.Kg4 gxh5+ 66.Kxh5 Nf3 67.Kg4 Ne5+ 68.Kf4 Nc4 69.Rh5 Kg6 70.Rh2 Ne3 71.Re2 h5 72.Ke4 Ng4 
73.Kf4 Ne3 74.Ke4 Ng4 75.Kf4 Kf6 76.Rg2 Bb2 77.Rg1 Bc3 78.Rg2 Be1 79.Re2 Bf2 80.Re8 Be3+ 
81.Kg3 Kf5 82.Rh8 Nf6 83.Kf3 Bf4 84.Ra8 Nh7 85.Ra5+ Be5 86.Ra4 Ng5+ 87.Ke2 h4 88.c3 Ne4 
89.Kf3 Nxc3 90.Ra8 h3 91.Rf8+ Ke6 92.Rd8 h2 93.Kg2 Nd5 94.Kh1 d3 95.Re8+ Kf5 96.Rf8+ Ke4 
97.Rf2 Nb6 98.Rf1 d2 99.Rd1 Kd3 100.Rf1 Kc2 0-1

What a grind in the endgame!

Note that Summerscale is the author of A Killer Chess Repertoire, which advocates the Colle-Zukertort (mentioned earlier in the post).  It interesting that he encountered difficulty against the same plan I encountered.  I don't remember this game (or this plan) mentioned in his book!

As far as I can see, black can play 11.Ne5 cxd4 in Yermolinsky-Shaked and follow the same plan.  

The position arising after 12.dxe5 in Summerscale-Luther doesn't look good for white to me.  Is white's best 11. Nxc6 after 10.Ne4 cxd4?  This doesn't look that great to me either (see Reefschlaeger-Luther).  I haven't seen this plan documented in any books on the opening, yet it seems like a strong equalizer (or more!).
  

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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #16 - 10/18/03 at 02:42:39
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The Exterminator, your last post just made this a hot topic!   Smiley

Kidding aside, ...Ne4 is often effective means of nullifying white's attack.  In both Belfer-Yermolinsky and Reefschlaeger-Luther (above post), after ...Ne4 both games turned in black's favor.  A common method for black is to allow white to set up a stonewall, and at the same time create a stonewall on one's own, resulting in a symmetrical stonewall structure.

This reminds me of the game Yermolinsky-Shaked, where black played the maneuver ...Ne8, ...f5, ...Nd6, ...Ne4.  White seemed to get good play in opening.  It seems like the plan of g4 may offer white a slight advantage, though it seems hard to make much of this in such a locked position.

[Event "New York open"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Yermolinsky, Alex"]
[Black "Shaked, Tal"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2660"]
[BlackElo "2535"]
[NIC "RE 20.15.2"]
[ECO "A04"]
[PlyCount "81"]

1. Nf3 c5 2. b3 d5 3. e3 Nf6 4. Bb2 e6 5. d4 Nc6 6. Nbd2 Be7 7. Bd3 O-O 8. O-O b6 9. a3 Bb7 10. Qe2 a5 11. Ne5 Ne8 12. f4 f5 13. g4 Nd6 14. Qg2 Nxe5 15. dxe5 Ne4 16. Rad1 Qe8 17. gxf5 exf5 18. Bxe4 dxe4 19. Nc4 Ba6 20. Rf2 Bxc4 21. bxc4 Rd8 22. Rd5 b5 23. Rfd2 bxc4 24. e6 Qg6 25. Rd7 Rxd7 26. Rxd7 Re8 27. Qxg6 hxg6 28. Ra7 Bf6 29. Bxf6 gxf6 30. Rxa5 Rxe6 31. Rxc5 Ra6 32. Rxc4 Rxa3 33. Kf2 Kg7 34. h4 g5 35. hxg5 fxg5 36. fxg5 Kg6 37. Rc8 Kxg5 38. Rg8  Kf6 39. Rf8  Ke6 40. Re8  Kd5 41. Ke2

Notice that Yermolinsky played Qe2 first before committing to Ne5.  Notice this approach bears similarity to a line in the Classical Queen's Indian, which is often considered by theory to offer Black equal chances:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 b6 4.Bd3 Bb7 5.0-0 d5 6.b3 Bd6 7.Bb2 0-0 8.c4 Nbd7 
9.Nc3 a6 10.Rc1 Qe7

I think this is something important to take note of, since the immediate 10...Ne4 is considered inferior to 10...Qe7, the main line of this variation.  Also Yermolinsky is strong player who has had much experience in queen's pawn openings.

I think it advisable for Colle-Zukertort players (from the white and black side) to take a look at the theory of this line in Classical QID and search for ideas that can be applied analogously in the Zukertort.  I think Geller's The Complete Queen's Indian and Yrjola and Tella's The Queen's Indian are good sources on the Classical.
  

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The Exterminator
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Re: COLLE-ZUKERTORT SYSTEM
Reply #15 - 10/17/03 at 08:18:37
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I play the Zukertort and its very good  Grin but you have to attack and ensure that e5 doesn't fall.  My question is what's the best defence against Black playing Ne4.  It appears that perhaps white should ignore this but it still causes some concern.  Any views from all those Zukers out there?
  
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