In my last post, I meant ...c5, ...Nc6, ...b6 for the black side in the Colle-Zucketort.  Black can play a setup versus the Colle-Zuckertort similar to the white side of the Classical QID (e3 lines), the difference is usually that black places the bishop on e7(e2) instead of d6(d3).  My point is that I think the Colle-Zukertort should be viewed as reversed opening, instead of an attacking system.  Usually reversed openings do not yield an advantage for white against accurate play, though there are opportunities for both sides to make strategic errors.  Yusupov has used this opening successfully in this manner.

Usually the books I see on this opening usually show the typical plan of white going for Ne5, then f4 and a kingside attack with a few pretty games and little analysis.  My observation was that maybe this isn't the best approach against the system I have described.  White often plays a3 to prevent Nb4, which often becomes a weaness.  Upon Ne5, black can immediate take the knight on e5, and after dxe5, I am not sure this is that great for white.  I have noticed that often the stronger players who plays this system are not in such a hurry to play this way.

Okay, this might sound vague (which I think led to some confusion the last post), so I will provide concrete examples.  In this system, when white plays for an early Ne5 (which is often recommended in books), I think ...cxd5 followed by ...Nxe5 is a very strong plan for black.

For example in the first game below, I think the structure after white recaptures on e5 with the d4 pawn (13. dxe5) is unfavorable for white.  Note that c2 pawn and e5 weaknesses white has to worry about, while black has a strong structure and the more active pieces.  I lost to a game to IM Rashid Ziatdinov, when he played this system against me, and after looking at game, I came to the conclusion that this structure should be avoided.  The bishop on b2 is a sorry sight.

I think this is a good example of how black should play, even though it is an internet game.  I'm not sure, but I think "RZiat" may be actually be Ziatdinov himself.  In the game I played against Ziatdinov, he played Be7 and captured instead with the knight on e5 after a preliminary pawn exchange on d4 (which I also think is effective plan).

[Event "Internet Section 18-A"]
[Site "Dos Hermanas"]
[Date "2003.03.18"]
[Round "1"]
[White "D4damager"]
[Black "RZiat"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D05"]
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 Nc6 6.Bb2 cxd4 7.exd4 Bd6 8.0-0 0-0 
9.Nbd2 b6 10.a3 Bb7 11.Re1 Rc8 12.Ne5 Bxe5 13.dxe5 Nd7 14.Nf3 Nc5 15.h4 Nxd3 16.Qxd3 h6 
17.Rac1 Rc7 18.Re2 Qc8 19.Ree1 Ba6 20.Qd2 Rd8 21.Nd4 Nxd4 22.Bxd4 Qd7 23.g3 Qe7 24.Bb2 d4 
25.Red1 Bb7 26.c4 Rcd7 27.Qf4 d3 28.Rd2 Qc5 29.Rc3 Qc6 30.f3 Qxf3 31.Qxf3 Bxf3 32.b4 Be2 
33.c5 bxc5 34.Rxc5 Rd5 35.Rc7 a5 36.Bc3 axb4 37.Bxb4 Rxe5 38.Bc3 Rf5 39.Ra7 e5 40.a4 e4 
41.Ba5 e3 42.Rxe2 dxe2 43.Bxd8 e1=Q+ 0-1

This game is an example of problems white can have when he avoids the capture on e5 with Nxc6 (which is probably best).

[Event "Bayern-chI Bank Hofmann 2nd"]
[Site "Bad Wiessee"]
[Date "1998.11.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Reefschlaeger,Helmut"]
[Black "Luther,Thomas"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D05"]
1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 Nc6 6.0-0 Be7 7.Nbd2 0-0 8.Bb2 Qc7 
9.a3 b6 10.Qe2 Bb7 11.Ne5 cxd4 12.Nxc6 Qxc6 13.exd4 Ne4 14.Rfe1 Rfc8 15.Bxe4 dxe4 16.c4 b5 
17.c5 Rd8 18.Qxe4 Bxc5 19.Qxc6 Bxc6 20.dxc5 Rxd2 21.Bc1 Rd3 22.b4 Rad8 23.Bf4 R8d4 24.Be5 Rd5 
25.Bf4 Kf8 26.f3 Ke7 27.Kf2 f6 28.Re3 e5 29.Rxd3 Rxd3 30.Ke2 Rb3 31.Bd2 Ke6 32.Be1 Rb2+ 
33.Bd2 Rb3 34.Be1 g5 35.h3 h5 36.Bd2 a6 37.Kf2 Kf5 38.Rd1 g4 39.hxg4+ hxg4 40.Be3 g3+ 
41.Ke2 e4 42.fxe4+ Bxe4 43.Rd8 Rxa3 44.Rc8 Bxg2 45.c6 Ra2+ 46.Kd1 Bf3+ 47.Kc1 Be4 48.c7 Rc2+ 
49.Kd1 Bb7 50.Rg8 Rxc7 51.Rxg3 Ke4 52.Bd2 f5 53.Re3+ Kd4 54.Re8 Rh7 55.Bf4 Kc4 0-1

If black delays Ne5, black can often play ...e5 with a good game:

[Event "Dubai op"]
[Site "Dubai"]
[Date "2002.04.15"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Omearat,Adel"]
[Black "Sadvakasov,Darmen"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D05"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.e3 d5 4.b3 e6 5.Bd3 Nc6 6.a3 Bd6 7.Bb2 Qc7 8.Nbd2 e5 
9.dxe5 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 Bxe5 11.Bxe5 Qxe5 12.0-0 0-0 13.c4 Rd8 14.Qc2 Bg4 15.Rae1 Qd6 16.Bf5 d4 
17.exd4 cxd4 18.c5 Bxf5 19.Qxf5 Qa6 20.Re7 Rd5 21.Qf3 Rxc5 22.Rfe1 Rac8 23.g4 b5 24.Qf4 Rf8 
25.g5 Nh5 26.Qg4 g6 27.h4 Qxa3 28.Qxd4 Rc1 29.Kg2 Rxe1 30.Rxe1 Qa6 31.Kg1 Qb7 32.Ne4 Re8 
33.Re3 Qc6 34.Nf6+ Nxf6 35.Qxf6 Qd7 36.Qf3 a5 37.Rxe8+ Qxe8 38.Qc3 a4 39.bxa4 bxa4 40.Qb4 Qa8 
41.Qa3 Qe4 42.Qg3 Qb1+ 43.Kg2 Qb2 44.h5 gxh5 0-1

In this game, black plays an early ...cxd4 (before Ne5), white slowly prepares Ne5, and black demonstrates a3 to be a weakening move.  A common mistake I see in the Colle Zukertort is that white makes typical, yet committal moves and ends up worse, as black "has more information."  (This reminds me of a discussion in Suba's Dynamic Chess Strategy.)

[Event "Elista ol (Men)"]
[Site "Elista"]
[Date "1998.09.29"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Vasquez,Rodrigo"]
[Black "Rozentalis,Eduardas"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D05"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 c5 4.Bd3 d5 5.b3 Nc6 6.0-0 Be7 7.Bb2 cxd4 8.exd4 0-0 
9.Nbd2 Qc7 10.a3 Rd8 11.Re1 Qb6 12.Rb1 Bd7 13.c4 a5 14.Qe2 Qa7 15.Rbc1 Be8 16.Bb1 Rac8 
17.h3 Bf8 18.Red1 g6 19.Qe3 Bg7 20.Kh1 a4 21.b4 dxc4 22.Nxc4 Nd5 23.Qg5 Nce7 24.Ne3 Bb5 
25.Nxd5 Nxd5 26.Ne5 b6 27.Qd2 Qe7 28.Rxc8 Rxc8 29.Rc1 Rxc1+ 30.Qxc1 Bxe5 31.dxe5 Qh4 32.Qd2 Nf4 
33.Bc2 Bf1 34.Kg1 Qg5 0-1

Also, I think the capture on e5 without cxd4 is also good, especially when black can follow up with ...d4 as in this game.  

[Event "Mid-America Class op"]
[Site "Chicago"]
[Date "1995.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Belfer,J"]
[Black "Yermolinsky,Alex"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D05"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 d5 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 Nc6 6.a3 Qa5+ 7.Bd2 Qc7 8.Bc3 b6 
9.Nbd2 Be7 10.0-0 Bb7 11.Bb2 0-0 12.Ne5 Nxe5 13.dxe5 Ne4 14.f3 Nxd2 15.Qxd2 Rac8 16.Be2 Rfd8 
17.Qe1 g6 18.Qf2 d4 19.f4 Be4 20.Rac1 Qb7 21.exd4 cxd4 22.Bd3 Bxd3 23.cxd3 Qd5 24.b4 Qb3 
25.Qd2 a5 26.bxa5 bxa5 27.Rxc8 Rxc8 28.Bxd4 a4 29.Rc1 Rxc1+ 30.Qxc1 Bxa3 31.Qc3 Qxc3 32.Bxc3 Bc1 
0-1

And here's a final game from IM Stuart Rachels (a living legend in Alabama) with the black pieces.  

[Event "US op"]
[Site "Chicago"]
[Date "1989.08.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Scher,Edward"]
[Black "Rachels,Stuart"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D05"]
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 Nc6 6.Bb2 Bd6 7.Nbd2 0-0 8.0-0 Qe7 
9.Re1 e5 10.e4 cxd4 11.exd5 Nxd5 12.Nxd4 Nxd4 13.Bxd4 Nf4 14.Qf3 Nxd3 15.Qxd3 Qc7 16.Bb2 f6 
17.Nc4 Bb4 18.c3 Rd8 19.Qe4 Bc5 20.Ne3 Be6 21.Rad1 Qa5 22.Ra1 Qa6 23.Qc2 Qd3 24.Rad1 Qxc2 
25.Nxc2 Bf5 26.Na3 Bd3 27.b4 Be7 28.Nb1 Bc4 29.a3 Bb3 30.Rc1 b5 31.Re2 Bc4 32.Rd2 Bd3 
33.Rdd1 e4 34.Nd2 Be2 0-1

I think many of the plans described are very logical and often make it difficult for white(!) to demonstrate equality after the typical plans with Ne5.  In the books I see on this opening, the coverage seems very superficial, which I think is mainly due to fact that the target audience is mainly club players.  I don't think this is a bad opening, but it seems to me that white should play with more flexibility in the perspective of a reversed opening.  From this viewpoint, I actually think this is a bad opening to recommend to beginners (if taught in the way it is in most books), because I think to play the opening at its full potential, flexibility and knowledge of several middlegames that arise in Queen's Indian is demanded from the player of the white pieces.  Also there is often the extra burden of being the first to decide what structure is the best to commit to.  I don't think this is an easy matter, and I think white should look upon the current literature with suspicion and carefully develop a repertoire based an examination on reversed QID middlegame structures that can arise from the Colle-Zukertort.  I think that there should be a more serious examination of the Colle-Zukertort in chess literature with these ideas in mind (well, as far as I know in the English language).

A thought just occurred to me.  Doesn't the Colle-Zukertort resemble a Classical QID (when black plays ..Nc6, ...b6, ...e6, etc.) in reverse?  I don't think white can claim an advantage of any sort in the Colle-Zukertort and if he has heart set on a kingside attack it seems like he could easily end up worse after accurate defense (like the Classical QID from the black perspective).  I think the many books that show brilliant kingside attacks in most of the games in the opening are somewhat misleading.

I agree with IronMarshall. To add to his statement, the London seems to be a good line to play versus the Chigorin. There is very little to nothing written in the opening monographs on what Black should do if he faces the London. How often do you face the Chigorin Variation ? I think the GMs who use the Colle Zukertorte (CZ) do so within a mixed bag of opening variations. My guess is they use it if the opportunity presents itself and the opponent is "right" for it. You probably need the CZ, the 150, the Barry Attack, the QGD, the London, the Torre to play in the big leagues. However, as I once read, since I play in the fish pond, I can get away with less.

First of all isn't the colle-zukertort system with the bishop on b2

Secondly referring to the torre attack i find that in some cases delaying the bishop a good idea. I play the colle system alot and it can be quite a devious opening.  If i can find it, i have a tournament game i played where i played the colle and when i had my knight on e4 my opponent had his knight on f6, he did not take my knight and the circumstances were that if i took his knight with my night he had to smash up his pawn structure infront of his king, taking the knight with the queen would have led to a trapped queen!

I will post it some other time.

You could try to use Torre attack instead of Colle. You have much active positions especially if your opponent commit himself to early e6

Not a bad idea to add the Bf4 move to your repertoire!
I recommend to do it versus 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6. Can you imagine that a GRANDMASTER found himself in a lost position after only 6 moves ???

Ortega - GM Farago

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 c5 4.e3 b6 5.Nc3 cd 6.Nb5 d6.

Greetings

SutterCane

Many greetings to readers of this forum. I see all the forums which Mr.SutterCane has opened and found out that he is probably inspired from a Summerscale's "Killer...". Several months ago I also started to build my new opening repertoire. I was an e4 fan earlier but because I don't have too much time, I decided to leave e4 and to prepare something "less to study".

I bought Summerscale's "Killer" and I have really enjoyed reading it and preparing my new lines. The Barry and 150 attack are reall fun and not so many opponents know them. But I found the third recommended system ""Colle-Zukertort" something passive. May be I didn't study it in enought depth?!

My question? Could be "The Colle" in "killer's" repetoire replaced by "London system" ??? The London is also known to be an equal system which doesn' give white any real advantage. Can someone give me an advice about this problem and help me to make the right decision? Thank you!