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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response. (Read 105990 times)
MNb
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #198 - 05/05/06 at 02:20:20
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When comparing the Fort Knox with the BDG-Teichmann Defense, the first question should be: how to assess the Fort Knox position after 8...Bxf3 9.Qxf3 c6 ? It is by no means clear to me, that this position offers equality to Black. Assuming that it is better for White to some extent, it is already partial compensation to have forced Black in this type of position. Add to this the half open f-file and it might be enough.
For the sake of clarity: I do not imply this statement is correct. It is a possible and logical one though. I only want to make clear, that here every conclusion depends on an assumption concerning the Fort Knox.
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #197 - 05/04/06 at 22:34:26
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Quote:
“On the subject of this particular variation with ...Bg4 (there are plenty of other strong set-ups) speeking strictly in abstract terms, what have we got on the board? A kind of Caro, or perhaps the position is best compared with a line of the Rubinstein French [1. e4 e6 ; 2. d4 d5 ; 3. Ktc3 ed ; 4. Ktxe4 Bd7 ; 5. Ktf3 Bc6 ; 6. Bd3 Ktd7 ; 7. 0-0 (or 7. Be3) Ktgf6 ; 8. Ktc3 (avoiding exchanges, but again maybe not best) Bxf3 ; 9. Qxf3 c6.] White is missing his f-pawn, and his kingside dark-squares in general are weak. He hasn't even got development to compensate for this (in the French line, Black played ...Bd7-c6-xf3 without any prompting from h3, as opposed to ...Bg4xf3), so what is the deal? The f-file? Does White have a mating attack? In your honest opinion, can this possibly justify the surrender of a pawn by White (unbalancing the play is a better excuse for Black gambits) at such an early stage? “, Hubert Decker.


Really this is a very logical argument and quite frankly I find it amazing the White position holds up as well as it does.  Perhaps one day it will be proven that Black does indeed have a clear advantage here.  Where does White's compensation come from?  An open f-file and maybe an extra move or two in development over the Rubinstein variation (originally I had only thought about Rubinstein variations where Black plays an early ...c5 without the bishop maneuver and had somehow missed the posts on exactly the variation Uberdeker was referring to).  It certainly doesn't seem, logically thinking, that White should have enough.  While I don't think it's been proven for certain that White does have enough it certainly seems that he has enough compensation to make matters very unclear.  The variations speak for themselves but if pressed to put it in words I'd say that White's compensation does actually come from his missing f-pawn!  How many times have you wished that you could just get rid of one of your pawns to extend the scope of your pieces for attack (the rook-pawn readily comes to mind)?  I think the Rook's extra mobility provided by not having the f-pawn plays more of a role than we would expect it to.  Also White's extra development is key.  Usually the extra pressure provided by the superior scope of White's pieces affords him even more of a development advantage.  Of course the missing f-pawn also detracts from White's king safety so it's not a one-way street.  So should this result in enough compensation I ask again?  It doesn't seem like it should and in the final analysis I don't think it will but I doubt that White is losing by force either and in the meantime it makes for a decent practical weapon for club players.  If you want to reach greater heights of understanding then just don't use it exclusively (at least not forever).   

If it seemed like I was all over the place with that then I don't disagree.  I actually find the whole argument confusing and illogical.  However, Mr.Spock didn't invent Chess.
  
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #196 - 05/03/06 at 21:33:05
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I had actually thought for once  that 10...Bb4 (usually ...Bb4 is wrong in the BDG) was the critical move here.  These positions are intricate enough that we should be careful of pronoucements of what moves are weak or strong and of course which variations are refuted.  The truth is out there, we just need to keep analyzing/playing.
  
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #195 - 05/03/06 at 18:47:44
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Sacapawn said : Quote:
10.-,Nbd7  is better than 10.-,Bb4?!. Probably the Black players overlooked the possibility for White to castle king-side. If now 11.0-0 Black plays Qc7 intending 0-0-0. Then the attack with h4-g5 becomes pointless. Or 11.0-0-0 Bb4 with the threat of Bxc3.


And I agree with you, 10..Nbd7 instead of 10..Bb4 should be better. But there is a recent game of Leisebein where this time, Black played with the plan of 10..Nbd7. I changed the move order of the first moves where a transposition arrised after our well-known line : 8.g4 h6. 


[Event "RSS5D pro-43"]
[Date "2005.08.18"]
[ECO "D00"]
[White "Leisebein, Peter"]
[Black "Schmalfuss, Heiko"]
[Result "1-0"]
[RS-ELO-White "2283"]
[RS-ELO-Black "2135"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6 8. g4 h6 9. Be3 e6 10. Bd3 Nbd7 11. 0-0-0 Bb4 12. Ne4 Nxe4 13. Bxe4 Nf6 14. Rhf1 Qc7 15. Bd3 0-0-0 16. c4 Rd7 17. Kb1 Kb8 18. Bc2 Ka8 19. Bb3 Be7 20. Rg1 e5 21. d5 Rhd8 22. Ba4 e4 23. Qf2 Qa5 24. dxc6 Rxd1+ 25. Bxd1 bxc6 26. Bb3 Qc7 27. Ba4 Kb7 28. Bc2 Rd7 29. h4 Qe5 30. g5 Ne8 31. Qxf7 Nd6 32. Qf1 hxg5 33. hxg5 Qe6 34. Qe2 Nxc4 35. Bb3 Rd3 36. Rc1 Rxe3 37. Qxe3 Nxe3 38. Bxe6 Kc7 39. g6 Kd6 40. Bc8 c5 41. Rc3 Nd5 42. Ra3 e3 43. Bg4 Bf6 44. Bf3 Nf4 45. Rxe3 Nxg6 46. Ra3 Ne5 47. Ra6+ Kc7 48. Rxa7+ Kb6 49. Rb7+ Ka6 50. Rb3 Ka7 51. Bd5 Ka6 52. Kc2 g5 53. Rb8 Ng4 54. Bf3 Ne3+ 55. Kd3 Bd4 56. b4 g4 57. Bc6 g3 58. Rg8 Nf5 59. Be4   1-0


  
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #194 - 05/03/06 at 06:21:21
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Quote:
And finally 8.g4 h6. I think all these games and analysis can support my claims that white has enough compensation after 8.g4 and it is good for OTB use.
 
 
[Event "BDG 02 corr"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "2000.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Leisebein, Peter"]
[Black "Junker, Anders"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[PlyCount "51"]
[EventDate "2000.??.??"]
[EventType "tourn (corr)"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.06.15"]
 
1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6 8.
g4 h6 9. Be3 e6 10. Bd3 Bb4 11. O-O Bxc3 12. bxc3 Qd5 13. Qg3 Qa5 14. Rab1 b6
15. Qc7 Nbd7 16. Qxc6 O-O 17. c4 Qa3 18. Qg2 e5 19. g5 hxg5 20. Bxg5 Qd6 21.
dxe5 Qxe5 22. Rb5 Qe6 23. Bh6 Ne8 24. Rh5 Qd6 25. Kh1 f5 26. Rg1 1-0
 
 
 
[Event "DESC SZ002 email"]
[Site "DESC email"]
[Date "1999.12.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Leisebein, Peter"]
[Black "Suermann, Uwe"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[WhiteElo "1628"]
[PlyCount "53"]
[EventDate "1999.??.??"]
[EventType "tourn (corr)"]
[EventRounds "12"]
[EventCountry "GER"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.06.15"]
 
1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6 8.
g4 h6 9. Be3 e6 10. Bd3 Bb4 11. O-O Nbd7 12. h4 Bxc3 13. bxc3 Qa5 14. g5 hxg5
15. hxg5 O-O-O 16. gxf6 gxf6 17. Rfe1 Qh5 18. Qxh5 Rxh5 19. Kf2 Rh2+ 20. Kf3
Rdh8 21. Rg1 R8h3+ 22. Rg3 Rh8 23. Bf4 R2h5 24. Rag1 e5 25. Be3 Kc7 26. Rg7 Rf8
27. Bc4 1-0


10.-,Nbd7  is better than 10.-,Bb4?!. Probably the Black players overlooked the possibility for White to castle king-side. If now 11.0-0 Black plays Qc7 intending 0-0-0. Then the attack with h4-g5 becomes pointless. Or 11.0-0-0 Bb4 with the threat of Bxc3.
  
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Sevenviolets
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #193 - 05/03/06 at 05:31:12
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Scholar wrote on 05/03/06 at 03:43:02:
Sevenviolets wrote on 05/02/06 at 22:20:53:
And finally 8.g4 h6. I think all these games and analysis can support my claims that white has enough compensation after 8.g4 and it is good for OTB use.


But the games you give (against 8...h6) show White playing 9.Be3, which is somewhat striking given your earlier post.  At any rate, this ground has already been covered elsewhere.


Yes, you are right. But my rejection of 9.Be3 was wrong. It is also good and playable move. And it is not true that in 8.Be3 line g4 is not played often. It IS. Leisebein recommends to play this move in an early stage in 8.Be3 lines. 
And I agree with Scholar´s 8...h6 9.Bf4 Qxd4! 10.Nb5 cxd5 11.Qxb7 Qe4+! which is at at least =. 10.Rh2 followed by Rd2 gives white some interesting attacking chances against future 0-0-0 on queenside but it is difficult to say.
  
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #192 - 05/03/06 at 03:43:02
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Sevenviolets wrote on 05/02/06 at 22:20:53:
And finally 8.g4 h6. I think all these games and analysis can support my claims that white has enough compensation after 8.g4 and it is good for OTB use.


But the games you give (against 8...h6) show White playing 9.Be3, which is somewhat striking given your earlier post.  At any rate, this ground has already been covered elsewhere.
  
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #191 - 05/02/06 at 22:20:53
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And finally 8.g4 h6. I think all these games and analysis can support my claims that white has enough compensation after 8.g4 and it is good for OTB use.


[Event "BDG 02 corr"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "2000.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Leisebein, Peter"]
[Black "Junker, Anders"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[PlyCount "51"]
[EventDate "2000.??.??"]
[EventType "tourn (corr)"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.06.15"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6 8.
g4 h6 9. Be3 e6 10. Bd3 Bb4 11. O-O Bxc3 12. bxc3 Qd5 13. Qg3 Qa5 14. Rab1 b6
15. Qc7 Nbd7 16. Qxc6 O-O 17. c4 Qa3 18. Qg2 e5 19. g5 hxg5 20. Bxg5 Qd6 21.
dxe5 Qxe5 22. Rb5 Qe6 23. Bh6 Ne8 24. Rh5 Qd6 25. Kh1 f5 26. Rg1 1-0



[Event "DESC SZ002 email"]
[Site "DESC email"]
[Date "1999.12.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Leisebein, Peter"]
[Black "Suermann, Uwe"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[WhiteElo "1628"]
[PlyCount "53"]
[EventDate "1999.??.??"]
[EventType "tourn (corr)"]
[EventRounds "12"]
[EventCountry "GER"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.06.15"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6 8.
g4 h6 9. Be3 e6 10. Bd3 Bb4 11. O-O Nbd7 12. h4 Bxc3 13. bxc3 Qa5 14. g5 hxg5
15. hxg5 O-O-O 16. gxf6 gxf6 17. Rfe1 Qh5 18. Qxh5 Rxh5 19. Kf2 Rh2+ 20. Kf3
Rdh8 21. Rg1 R8h3+ 22. Rg3 Rh8 23. Bf4 R2h5 24. Rag1 e5 25. Be3 Kc7 26. Rg7 Rf8
27. Bc4 1-0

  
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #190 - 05/02/06 at 22:16:00
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1. e4 d5 2. d4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6 8. g4 e6 9. g5 Nd5 10. Bd3 Nb4 11. O-O
Qxd4+ 12. Be3 Qd7 13. Rad1 Qe7 14. g6 f6 15. Be4!? this is another way white can go Nd5 

(15... f5? 16. Bxf5) 

(15... Nd7!? 16. Qg3 O-O-O (16... f5 17. Bxf5 exf5 18. Bg5 Qc5+ 19. Kg2) 17. Bxa7
hxg6 18. Na4 e5 19. a3 Na6 20. Bxg6 b5 21. Nc3) 

16. Nxd5 cxd5 17. Bxd5 exd5 18.Rfe1 Nc6 19. Bd4 Ne5 20. Qxd5 Qd7 21. Bxe5 Qxd5 22. Bf4+ Qe5 23. Bxe5 fxe5 24.
Rxe5+ Be7 25. Rde1 O-O-O 26. Rxe7 hxg6 27. Rxg7 with a slightly better endgame. 

  
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #189 - 05/02/06 at 21:48:27
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See here for novelties...

[Event "DESC SE034 email"]
[Site "DESC email"]
[Date "2001.04.24"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Fritsche, Frank"]
[Black "Radeiski, Wolfgang"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[WhiteElo "2009"]
[PlyCount "43"]
[EventDate "2001.??.??"]
[EventType "tourn (corr)"]
[EventRounds "6"]
[EventCountry "GER"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.06.15"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6 8. g4 e6 9. g5 Nd5 10. Bd3 Nb4 11. O-O Qe7 

(11... Qd7 12. Be4) 
(11... Qxd4+ 12.Kh1!?N Qd7 13. Bf4 Nxd3 14. Rad1) 

12. Be4 Nd7 13. a3 Nd5 14. Bxd5 cxd5 15. Bf4 Nb6 16. Nb5 Kd7 17. Nd6 h6 18. Qb3 e5 19. dxe5 Qe6 20. gxh6 gxh6 21. Rae1 Be7 22.Kh2 1-0

  
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #188 - 05/02/06 at 21:39:35
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And this line is perhaps even more interesting. Play from both sides seems very reasonable.

[Event "DESC STS010 email"]
[Site "DESC email"]
[Date "2001.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Leisebein, Peter"]
[Black "Grott, Peter"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[WhiteElo "2167"]
[BlackElo "2075"]
[PlyCount "63"]
[EventDate "2001.??.??"]
[EventType "tourn (corr)"]
[EventRounds "6"]
[EventCountry "GER"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.06.15"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6 8.
g4 Qxd4 9. Be3 Qd6 10. g5 Nfd7 11. Bd2 Ne5 12. Qe2 Nbd7 13. O-O-O O-O-O 14. Be3
Qb8 15. Kb1 e6 16. Qf2 a6 (16... Qc7 17. Bxa7 c5 18. Nb5 Qa5 19. Qf4 h6 20. g6
fxg6 21. Qe4) 17. Be2 Qc7 18. Bf4 f6 (18... Qa5 19. Ne4 c5 20. Qh2 c4 21. Rd4
Bb4 (21... Ba3 22. Nd2) 22. c3) 19. gxf6 gxf6 20. Ne4 Be7 21. Bc4 Nf8 22. Bh2
Qa5 23. Bxe6+ Nxe6 24. Qf5 Rhe8 25. Qxe6+ Nd7 26. Rhe1 h6 27. a4 Qb6 28. Qf5
Ba3 29. b3 Re7 30. Ka2 Bb4 31. Re2 Rf7 32. c3 1-0

I have analysed sidelines, but this is very quick analysis so it may be wrong.
But I think 11.Bd2 offers a wide range of possibilities. 

  
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #187 - 05/02/06 at 21:25:23
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One interesting attempt is 10.Bd3.

[Event "T16-02 corr"]
[Site "TSC corr"]
[Date "2002.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Leisebein, Peter"]
[Black "Kagel, Fred"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[PlyCount "29"]
[EventDate "2002.??.??"]
[EventType "tourn (corr)"]
[EventRounds "15"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.06.15"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6 8. g4 Qxd4 9. Be3 Qd6 10. Bd3 Nbd7 
11. O-O-O Nd5 (11... Ne5!?) 12. Nxd5 Qxd5 13. Be4 Qxa2 14. Rxd7! Kxd7 15. Rd1+ 1-0

  
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #186 - 05/02/06 at 21:16:27
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Sugartort wrote on 05/02/06 at 17:59:21:
Sevenviolets is very good at punctuation, but less than good at backing up that punctuation.

About variation 1) with 8...e6 & 10...Nb4, he says White has "other possibilities" than go into the Queen vs Minors ending. We do not get to see them. We have to believe him.

He awards variation 2) with 8.g4 Qd4: a '?!'   To know why, we have to make sense of this :
"From practical point of view, this move is bad, unlike you have really analysed one of the many continuation in more depth (but this did no one from a group of so-called BDG critics or opponents yet. They can offer only very flat opposition, often based on overgeneralisation)."

Hmm. Strange, because the discussion conducted on 8.g4 Qd4: on this very forum showed that Black here has a very clear plan of placing a dominating knight on e5, defending the crucial f7 point, along with simple development.
After the natural 9.Be3 Qd6 10.g5 Nfd7 11.Qf2 Ne5, White drifted into a bad position (ArkheiN : "I don't believe White has enough here"). So White was forced to go to extreme measures with 11.Nb5 !? to get at least some material advantage, but Black simply took the knight and got pleasant compensation.

This was in fact another example that Black has easier play in all lines, centered around development. Let's hear ArkheiN on the subject : "And the last argument against the BDG on OTB: It is harder to find the best moves for White than Black, somes of the best moves of the BDG that keep White alive are practically impossible to find OTB. (...) all theses reasons explains that the BDG is quite rare OTB."

Finally, let's hear what arguments Seven has against 8...h6, which has emerged as a very logical move frustrating the principal advance g4-g5.   "Geez! 8..h6? is a bad move."
He kindly adds that simple development with queenside castling, instead of taking on d4, is "completely ridiculous". Actually the last sensible word on this variation was, that White should probably castle long and stick with the plan g4-g5 after all.
To me this "middlegame with queenside castlings" looks more solid than the taking on d4, albeit less active. But White should protect d4 on move 8, when the pair g4-h6 can happen later.



To be completely honest... You are right. During the weekend I will try to look on g4 in more depth. But I have started to think about h6 better, also I need to have a closer look on Qxd4 Be3 Qd6 line (Leisebein has considered it the best move). And perhaps it is a crucial test of white´s play. 
Sugartort, you´re one of a few... who I think are offering very reasonable continuations for black side. I like your coverage of the lines. Well, maybe it is time to switch the sides and try to refute the white´s concept... but who remains to defend the white cause???
  
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #185 - 05/02/06 at 17:59:21
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Sevenviolets is very good at punctuation, but less than good at backing up that punctuation.

About variation 1) with 8...e6 & 10...Nb4, he says White has "other possibilities" than go into the Queen vs Minors ending. We do not get to see them. We have to believe him.

He awards variation 2) with 8.g4 Qd4: a '?!'   To know why, we have to make sense of this :
"From practical point of view, this move is bad, unlike you have really analysed one of the many continuation in more depth (but this did no one from a group of so-called BDG critics or opponents yet. They can offer only very flat opposition, often based on overgeneralisation)."

Hmm. Strange, because the discussion conducted on 8.g4 Qd4: on this very forum showed that Black here has a very clear plan of placing a dominating knight on e5, defending the crucial f7 point, along with simple development.
After the natural 9.Be3 Qd6 10.g5 Nfd7 11.Qf2 Ne5, White drifted into a bad position (ArkheiN : "I don't believe White has enough here"). So White was forced to go to extreme measures with 11.Nb5 !? to get at least some material advantage, but Black simply took the knight and got pleasant compensation.

This was in fact another example that Black has easier play in all lines, centered around development. Let's hear ArkheiN on the subject : "And the last argument against the BDG on OTB: It is harder to find the best moves for White than Black, somes of the best moves of the BDG that keep White alive are practically impossible to find OTB. (...) all theses reasons explains that the BDG is quite rare OTB."

Finally, let's hear what arguments Seven has against 8...h6, which has emerged as a very logical move frustrating the principal advance g4-g5.   "Geez! 8..h6? is a bad move."
He kindly adds that simple development with queenside castling, instead of taking on d4, is "completely ridiculous". Actually the last sensible word on this variation was, that White should probably castle long and stick with the plan g4-g5 after all.
To me this "middlegame with queenside castlings" looks more solid than the taking on d4, albeit less active. But White should protect d4 on move 8, when the pair g4-h6 can happen later.
  
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Re: Playing the BDG and the 1...c5 response.
Reply #184 - 05/02/06 at 05:29:33
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Sevenviolets wrote on 05/01/06 at 09:36:59:

  Var. 3. Geez! 8..h6? is a bad move. Of course I won´t be playing something like 9.Be3?! because I don´t need to cover d4 pawn, when taken compare it with 8.g4 Qxd4 where black plays one a bit useless move more. After 8.g4 h6 white has to play 8.Bd3 or 8.Bf4. And this positions are far from your clear-cut assesement. Only fool can evaluate this position as solid etc. It shows only that the person didn´t look at the position at all or very little.


This is not at all clear to me.  After 8...h6, 9...Qxd4 is much safer against either of your suggestions than 8...Qxd4 is.  It may well be that 8...h6 is a bad move against 8.g4, but there is, as always, more work to be done.

I am happy to be wrong here, and my sense of play is quite poor in these critical Qxd4 lines, so it would not surprise me.  Nevertheless, h6 is not useless -- it prevents g5 -- which White often finds useful against 8...Qxd4.

Let me give one pathetic example of play -- I have a great deal of respect for Sevenviolet's opinions in the BDG and there is no reason for me to waste time studying a line whose refutation is known.  8...h6 9.Bf4 Qxd4 10.Nb5 cxd5 11.Qxb7 Qe4+ =/+ and so white must prefer 10.Rh2 or something, when I do not see White's plan.

9.Bd3 is, I imagine, the way to go, and of course, Black can always play 9...e6 against either move.  At the end of the day, 8...Qxd4 is a move which is critical for 8.g4 but this is for someone else to investigate; it is also likely that 8.Be3 is more testing.
  
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