Ouch, I'd missed 11.Nb5 in the other thread - looks to be almost winning. In this case perhaps the entire Teichmann complex is actually shaky for black - certainly 8...Qxd4 fails if improvements can't be found for 11.Nb5!!

Possibly the 8...h6 lines need to be dug out, in this case. 8...e6 looks insufficent for an advantage, and 8...Qxd4 looks refuted.

This thread seems to be making short work of the Teichmann, at least. Perhaps the Fianchetto line is where we should next direct our attention?
Perhaps I should consider playing this stuff - if I keep taking it all as seriously as I am at the moment, then I'm sure to know a lot more than most of my opponents. I still can't believe white can cling to equality in every variation, however...

Can someone dig out the thread with 8...h6 in? I can't seem to find it and, I could be wrong, but it seems like it could in fact be black's only try to resuscitate the Teichmann!

Regards,
Craig

Sevenviolets does not want to take my Queen ; in the 19th century they would have spanked him for such an attitude. But I can be much more persuasive. After 17. ...Nd7 18.Ne4, f5 asks without detour : "Why, good Sir Knight, did you come on e4 in the first place ?"

If the brave Knight goes to d6, Black parts again with the source of the traffic-jam playing Qd6: 20.Rd6 Bd6, and White faces another version of the prospectless ending. I refer you again to Andersson for the end of the movie.

Otherwise, the line brought by CraigEvans with 8. ...Qd4: 9.Be3 Qd6 10.g5 Nfd7 11.Qf2 Ne5 12.Bg2 Nbd7 13. 0-0 seems to lead to a clearer Black advantage. What I like is not so much the capture of the d4-pawn but that of the e5-square.
Now the played h6 is interesting but the natural e6 springs to mind, since I doubt the Queen really wants that square.

Again Sevenviolets, there's no need to make a comment like "This isn´t a good evidence of quality of your analysis. I´m sorry. " as far as I can see... we all make mistakes in analysing, that's why chess is still alive. The day we can all calculate everything accurately, the game is dead and we have to move on.

I've finally had a chance to look at the position on a board (which is rare for me!) - Someone beat me to suggesting 17...Nd7 (although I think black's serious improvements should come a lot earlier, but instead of 20...Be7 in this line, in view of white's threatened Qa5-Qa4, I thought "Well, how about 20...f5?"

21.Nd6+ Bxd6 22.Rxd6 Qe7 23.Qe2! Qg5+ [23...Rhe8 24.Rxc6+! forces a draw] 24.Kh1 Qh4 and again, every line seems to lead to a forced draw for one side or the other - I could be missing something of course, as I don't profess to be a GM nor a computer, one of which would be needed to have any chance to find your way through the tactical maze here, but certainly 20...f5 seems to hold in this line.

21.Nc5!, however, looks like a big improvement here. My original thought was that black would be okay after 21...Bxc5 22.Bxc5 Kc7, but white here has 23.Qh4!! Qxg6+ 24.Kh2 Qf6 25.Bd6+! Kc8 26.Qb4! winning. So perhaps black has to try and hold the unbalanced endgame after 22...Nxc5 23.Rxd8+ Qxd8 24.Rxd8+ Kxd8 25.Qh4. Perhaps black can hold this, and with the two central passed/connected pawns, if he can get these rolling then I'm sure he'll be doing okay at the least. However, this should surely be better for white with correct play?

I will continue to say what I've been saying - the only critical test of 8.g4 is to instantly grab the loot on d4. I've not looked at the 8...h6 lines but I can't believe such a move for black.

The line I'm currently investigating appears to be Leisebein's Main Line after 8...Qxd4, 9.Be3 Qd6 10.g5 Nfd7 11.Qf2 Ne5 12.Bg2 Nbd7 13.O-O (given as strongest by Junior 9, which incidentally up to this point considers white, not black, better) h6! (Class's move against Leisebein last year) 14.Rad1 Qe6 15.Ne4. Class continued with 15...f6!? 16.g6 Nxg6 17.Nc5 Nxc5 18.Bxc5 Ne5 19.Bxa7 g6. The game finished as a draw, and can be found on the thread given by Scholar above. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it though, it's not clear to me that black didn't have improvements and that he shouldn't have carried on in the final position, with two rooks against a queen. But it's all very complicated.

Still, this is my hope at proving an advantage against 8.g4. Certainly 8...e6 looks a little dodgy and 10...Nb4?! doesn't quite cut it, if the above endgame is all black can play for he certainly doesn't have an edge.

Regards,
Craig 

Sugartort wrote on 03/28/06 at 10:15:36:


Sugartort, you really think this is "an easier to play for Black" position? You really think white got "an absolutely prospectless ending in 20 moves"? 

Please, have a close look at this position:

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6 8. g4 e6 9. g5 Nd5 10. Bd3 Nb4 
11. O-O Qxd4+ 12. Be3 Qd7 13. Rad1 Qe7 14. g6 f6 15. Qh5 h6 16. a3 Nxd3 17. Rxd3 Nd7 18. Ne4 O-O-O 
19.Rfd1 Qe8 20. Bxa7 Be7 and try a very simple and obvious move like 

21. Nd6+ Bxd6 22. Rxd6 Qe7 23. Qa5 forcing this position. Put it on the board and tell me frankly if you still think this is "easier to play for black" kind of position? Because I do not think so. I would be 100% happy to have this position over the board as white. 

Let´s see it in more depth. E.g. 23..f5 24.Kf1! you can try to win this in rather profylactic way or you can push even harder with 24.R1d3! going for a bit faster win. Actually, you need to be very, very lucky to at least draw this position. 

Another possibility is 23...Qe8 24.Qa4 and try to hold this one:)

But these lines after your suggested 20..Be7 are forced! Forced to the white´s win! 
This isn´t a good evidence of quality of your analysis. I´m sorry. 

Dear Sugartart,

Glad to see you come aboard!  Your Queen sacrifice indeed seems to be a clear improvement over 17. ...f5. I had simply rejected it on general grounds, but Black should be equal.

However, as Arkhein points out, I was trying to prove a clear Black advantage, and the whole line with 10. ...Ktb4 fails at this goal.

Perhaps you would be more available / interested in resuming this theoretical discussion with a 10th move or other deviation.

                                                                     Regards,
                                                                        Hubert

P.S. pas échecs...

Hello all and firstly to my friend Uberdeker. He talked me about this forum and specifically about this game with ArkheiN, which took me some time to detect among the handful of posts. Here are my thoughts:

1.d4 d5 2.e4 ??!
the move d5 is designed to prevent, thus goes to the "reckless" category. I must acknowledge it's not the worst move after d4 d5 because White has 2.Bh6!!

2. ... de4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 !
the only way to play it, probably. I don't exclude the possibility that White has a chance to draw if he from now on plays very well.

4. ... ef3 5.Nf3 Bg4 !? (Bf5) 6.h3 Bf3 7.Qf3 c6 8.g4 e6 !? 9.g5 Nd5 10.Bd3 Nb4 !?
that can hurt an orthodox eye. While "certainly not best" (CraigEvans) sounds right, it may not be that bad.

11. 0-0 cute Qd4+ 12.Be3 Qd7 13.Rad1 Qe7 14. g6 ! what a bull f6 15.Qh5 h6 16.a3 Nd3 17.Rd3

Now I don't see why Black must play f5. Sevenviolets agreed that on 16.Be4 (instead of a3), Nd7 was good for Black. That developing move, introducing long castling, is most logical here too. I presume that you dismissed it in view of 18.Ne4, but then is there anything wrong with the planned 0-0-0 ? Black is 2 connected passers to the good so White must do something before Black resumes mobilisation.

a) On 19.Ba7:, Ne5! and the black pieces come to life.
b) 19.Nd6+ (the intended "threat" ?) Qd6: 20.Rd6 Bd6 only accelerates Black's development. Now without the massive Queen, he's better, especially since Ba7: fails to b6.
c) The best way for White to inject morphine into Black's position, is 19.Rfd1. Then Black must begin to entangle with Qe8!, when the ending after 20.Ba7: Be7 21.Bb6 Nb6: 22.Rd8 Qd8 23.Rd8 Rd8 should be assessed. It looks about equal, in any case I don't see any constructive plan for White.

So even after 10. ...Nb4 White must be content with a draw.

After 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6 8.g4 e6 9.g5 Nd5 10.Bd3 Nb4 11.0–0 Qxd4+ 12.Be3 Qd7 13.Rad1 Qe7 14.g6 f6 15.Qh5 h6 16.a3 Nxd3 17.Rxd3 f5 18.Rfd1 Qf6 19.Bd4 Qg5+ 20.Qxg5 hxg5 21.Re3 (I also think this may be slightly better than 21.Re1.) I think White is much better and perhaps winning!  At the very least Black is going to have to play very good defense to hold this.  5...Bg4 with 6...Bxf3 may ultimately turn out to be a good defence to the BDG, but it has to be one of the worst practical choices if you haven't studied it in depth.  When one closely looks at the dangers of accepting the BDG one realizes the value of GM Prie's suggestions of 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 e5 and 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 Nxe4.

Perhaps I'm a patzer, but I wouldn't have automatically dismissed 10...Nb4 on the basis of any chess priciples.  As it turns out, it is too slow, but the idea of the move itself seemed logical enough.

Glenn

Just to be clear about my most recent judgement of the position(I edited my last message yesterday but was not very visible) : 19.Bd4 Qg5+ 20.Qxg5 hxg5 21.Re1 where I agree with sevenviolet that  White should have a small advantage. But I think 19.Bd4 Qg5+ 20.Qxg5 hxg5 21.Re3! can be better, with chance for a clear advantage (still small advantage at worst). This is a single line to show what can happen: 21..Nd7 22.Rxe6+ Kd8 23.Kg2 Kc7 24.Bxg7 Bxg7 25.Re7 Rad8 26.Rxg7 where White already regained material and rooks are very active, pawn  g6 is dangerous, and White will surely uses their activity to gain material sooner or later (for example pawn f5-g5 against g6). White might be (+/-, or +/= at worst) Uberdeker, do you agree with me? If no, we can continue this line where I will try to prove that what I said is true. It's depend of you.

My conclusion about 10..Nb4 : It's not White who have to try surviving, but Black! Black can hope for a draw at best, they have no winning chances and are suffering. Next try for a refutation is awaited