Teyko, just quoting a game doesn't show much... Particularly when the game is a non-high-level pre-computer-age and correspondence game (of course these two players might well be stronger than either of us, but there is no reason why one could not - sometimes easily - improve over their play). I think black was lost in the Stader-Gonzalez game fairly early on, maybe already around move 15. There are a number of points where black might have improved, e.g.
 
1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bf5 6. Ne5 e6 7. g4 Bg6 8.Qf3 c6 9. g5 Nh5 10. Bd3 Qxd4 11. Bxg6 Qxe5+ 12. Be4 Why on earth would black let white get the kind of attacking chances he gets in the main game? It seems more sensible to keep white from getting too much play with 12...Bb4, doesn't it? 

A. 13. Bd2 Bxc3 14. Bxc3 Qxg5 doesn't look great for white.

B. 13. O-O f5 14. Qxh5+ g6 15. Qf3 Bxc3 16. bxc3 Qxe4 17. Qxe4 fxe4 18. Rf6 Nd7 19. Rxe6+ Kf7 20. Rxe4 Rhe8 This endgame is clearly better for black, but maybe white can draw it.

In the 1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bf5 6. Ne5 Be6 variation, this position is supposed to be easy to play for black in the Scandinavian with his queen on a5 and the white f-pawn on the board. Does just the open f-file really give white enough?

I don't really know what sevenviolet's 7.h3!!? really does long-term (it does sort out some immediate problems, but what is the long-term plan? Maybe g2-g4?) 7...Nbd7 8.Qf3 and now 8...c6. I'd think that g6 & Bg7 is the logical plan for black and the only questio is what white has. Maybe g2-g4 is dangerous, it is very difficult to say what . After 8.Qe2 black would presumably still play c6, g6 & Bg7. White can castle queenside, but I guess black has the same option himself (after e.g. Qa5).

Quote:


Correct is 9...Nh5 =+.   

Mnb, 

Dude, you don't want to get into the Bd6 lines. f6 is the better move in my  opinion. I looked at the options and thought that it was better, but if you think Bd6 is better then I would like to see you analysis as to why.

White intends Qf3, Bg2 and Rh1.

Here is some analysis for MNB's line.

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bf5 6. Ne5 e6 7. g4 Ne4 (7... Be4 8. Nxe4 Nxe4 9. Qf3 Nd6 10. Be3 (10. Bf4 Be7 (10... f6 11. O-O-O fxe5 (11... Be7 12. Nd3 white's advantage) 12. dxe5 advantage to white) 11.O-O-O Bg5 12. Bxg5 Qxg5+ 13. Kb1 Qf6 (13... O-O 14. h4 with attacking options) 14. Qb3 O-O 15. Qh3 Re8 16. Bd3) 10... Qf6 11. Qe2 Nd7 12. Nxd7 Kxd7 13. Bg2 Rd8 14. O-O-O Kc8 15.h4 with attacking options) 8. gxf5 Qh4+ 9. Ke2 Nc6 10. Nxc6 Nxc3+ 11. bxc3 Qe4+ (11... bxc6 12.Bg2 white's advantage) 12. Be3 Qxh1 13. Ne5 Qxh2+ 14. Kd3 f6 15. Nc4 b5 (15... O-O-O 16. Qf3
a slight advantage to white) 16. Qf3 bxc4+ 17. Kxc4 Rb8 18. Bf4 Qg1 19. Qc6+ white is fine here.

Hey guys,

This is Teyko. I had a knee operation in August and was not on the board as I should have been. I saw the lines that some of the members have proposed and I will get the analysis up in the coming weeks. It should take me about 2 weeks. 

I think some of these lines are interesting and I don't know if there is any theory on them being actually played. 

I will try my best. I know that  the move proposed by nexirae is a fritz move, but I had a computer challenge in this line before and white won. 

So I will see what I can do.

Just two sample lines are not enough to draw conclusions.
6.Ne5 e6 7.g4 Ne4 8.gxf5 Qh4+ 9.Ke2 f6 (according to
Sawyer recommended by Gunderam) 10.Nf3 Qf2+ 11.Kd3 Nc5+ 12 dxc5 (12.Kc4!?) Na6 13.Be3 o-o-o+ 14.Bd4 Bxc5 15.Nb5 e5 16.Qe2 and White remains a piece up (Cody).
9...Nc6 is an idea. 10.Nf3? (the line after 10.Nxc6 cannot be assessed as equal, as the final position is very unbalanced, also after 13.Ne5 instead of 13.Na5)
Qf2+ 11.Kd3 o-o-o 12.Nxe4 Rxd4+ 13.Kc2 Bb4+ 14.Kb3 Na5+ 15.Ka4 Rxe4 -+ or 10.Be3? Nxe5 11.dxe5 Rd8 12.Qc1 Qg4+ 13.Ke1 Bb4 and again Black is better.
White can stick to gambit play with 8.Bb5+!? c6 9.o-o Bd6 and Markovich is right: Sawyer's evaluations are not reliable at all.
A) 10.gxf5 Bxe5 11.Qf3 Bxd4+ 12.Kh1 Clauser-Sawyer,
corr 1988, Nf2+ 13.Kg2 Bxc3 14.fxe6 fxe6 15.Qxc3
Qd5+ -+.
B) 10.Qf3 Bxe5 11.dxe5 Nxc3 12.bxc3 Stummer-
Winckelmann,  corr 1990 and White is a little better
according to Sawyer.  I don't think so: Qb6+ 13.Rf2 Nd7
B1) 14.gxf5 Nxe5 15.Qe4 Qxb5 16.fxe6 o-o -+.
B2) 14.Bxc6+ Qxc6 15.Qxc6 bxc6 16.gxf5 exf5 17.Rxf5
o-o and Black faces a very nice endgame.
So BDGers have to worry again. Where is Teyko?

Well, BGD afficionadoes, I am just trying to understand how White justly claims chances after 1. d4 d5  2. e4 dxe4  3. Nc3 Nf6  4. f3 exf3  5. Nxf3 Bf5!  6. Ne5 e6  7. g4 Bg6.  Somebody here said 8. Qf3 after which, though I have two BDG books by Sawyer, one by Lane and one by Schiller all claiming that White is good, I respectfully maintain my doubts about White's chances:   

1.  For starters, Black has 8...Nbd7!?.  Then 9. Nxg6 hxg6  10. g5 (Schiller gives 10. Qxb7, overlooking 10...Nxg4 and Black just wins) 10...Nd5  11. Nxd5 cxd5  12. Qxd5 c6  13. Qf3 Nb6 is given as "+=" by Lane.  Lots of luck, White players, if you trust that evaluation.   

2.  More critically, if Black wants to be stubborn about the pawn and play 9...c6, I am not sure what White can do about it:  10. g5 Nh5 and I do not agree that this knight is out of play.  10. Be3 (10. Bd3 Qxd4 11. Nxg3 is refuted by 11...fxg3! as given in Sawyer) 10...Nd7  11. Nxg6 hxg6  12. Bd3 Bd6  13. Ne4 Bc7.  Black is a pawn up and without structural weakness.  To me, White's burden of proof looks rather heavy.  I once won the Black side of this in a cc game.

I would be very interested to hear what anyone has to say about these ideas.

P.S.  5...Bf5  6. Ne5 Be6!? -- two moves with the bishop, wow!  Black seems to assert that the Ne5 is misplaced.  Thanks for that info, Eric.

Just a move order comment to the position after
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Ne5/Bc4

As Black I always choose the O´Kelly defence 4...c6! to transpose to the above mentioned line with 6.Bc4 as white can fight for equality after 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 5.Ne5! (5...Bf5 6.g4!?) but maybe has not enough compensation after 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bc4  ???

Some variations: 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6!
- 4.Nxe4 Bf5 =+
- 4.fxe4 e5! and now:
  - 5.dxe5 Qxd1+ 6.Nxd1 (6.Kxd1 Ng4 =+) Nxe4 =+
  - 5.d5 Bb4 6.Bg5 Bxc3+! 7.bxc3 Qa5 8.Qd3 Nxe4 -+
  - 5.Be3 Ng4 -+
  - 5.Nf3 exd4 and after both 6.Nxd4 and 6.Qxd4 Qxd4
    7.Nxd4 we can discuss how big black´s advantage
    really is: for sure BDG-players won´t like this
- 4.Bg5 exf3! an early Bg5 isn´t really good in the BDG
    as there are stronger attacking moves and this only
    eases exchanges for black
- 4.Be3 exf3! see above
- 4.Bc4! exf3! 5.Nxf3 Bf5! and now we are in the discussed Gundaram defence with 6.Bc4 without giving white any chance for the better 6.Ne5!

Another practical advantage of 4...c6 is that black can use it as backup line against different white gambits:
- 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f3 c6 4.e4 dxe4
- 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.f3 Nf6
and many other possibilities though in each of these lines other black variations may proove even stronger.

But of course everything depends on the evaluation of
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bc4
what I would call slightly better for black but not without
chances for white  ???

tracke

I make no pretense of knowing what is the best defense to the BDG, but I maintain that 5...Bf5 is a very good one.

I wonder how many strong players as Black would actually try 7...Be4 or 7...Ne4 with the clock ticking.   I myself would be unlikely play either move even in postal.  7...Bg6 is perfectly satisfactory and allows Black to keep his extra pawn.  If teyko's judgement that this produced an equal game were correct, I could even then rest my case: it is White's job, not Black's, to demonstrate an advantage in the opening.

But since he remains a pawn up with no obvious weaknesses, Black after 7...Bg6 has reasonable play for the win, and scant expectation of defeat if he continues to make solid moves.  Shifting one's pieces around and looking for simplifying opportunities is not so very challenging, after all. 

It seems that an infamous line of the BDG can go to the
recycle bin. 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3
Bf5 6.Ne5 e6 7.g4 Ne4 8.gxf5 Qh4+ 9.Ke2 Qf2+ 10.Kd3
Nc5+ 11.Kc4 a6 12.a3!
a)12...b5+ 13.Kb4 Bd6 14.dxc5 Bxe5 (Qxc5+ 15Kb3 Bxe5
   16fxe6 o-o 17exf7+ Kxf7 18Qd5) 15fxe6 fxe6 16Ne4
   Nc6+ 17Kb3 Nd4+ 18Ka3,
b)12...Nbd7 13Nxd7 b5+ 14Kb4 a5+ 15Kxb5 Nxd7
   16fxe5 Qf5+ 17Ka4 Qxe6 18Qe2 Nb6+ 19Kb5,
c)12...Bd6+ 13dxc5 Qxc5+ 14Kb3 Bxe5 15fxe6 Qb6+
   16Ka2 Qxe6+ 17Qd5
and White wins in all three variations.
But 7...Be4 8.Nxe4 Nxe4 etc. 11.Qf4 Bb4+ 12.c3 g5
might be a little better for Black. Anyhow, in the Gunderam Defence Black has more chances of active counterplay than in the Teichmann Defence.