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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie) (Read 30150 times)
GMEricPrie
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Re: The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie)
Reply #13 - 06/09/04 at 01:47:40
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LOL! 
This is one of the funniest chess hoax I have ever seen; thanX a lot!

Living in the fast, Lane who, unfortunately for him, does not have an eagle Wink eye, a bit quickly, I think,  commented the position after 12.Qe2 as “With equal chances”…
Supported by an ideally placed diagram, as spoted by X…

Indeed, after a certain move (Clue : Think of a move attacking a pawn which cannot be defended) the position is bound to rapidly become more and more equal for Black!

This is the matter with people living in the past; remembrance of those good old times when you could play ‘romantic’ openings, score points against reasonable opposition and even sell books on them. Smiley

Still, to witness the famous English author thinking deeper and deeper on the Hubsch 5.Bc4 is really a pity and I understand now how miserable must feel a BDG addict with such a support! Smiley

By the way, that short passage on this particular line makes me sink of the very beginning of the ‘Shrek 1’ film where you could see a page of some old imaged fairytale book, with a smooth voice in the back, talking of magic and princess, exactly like in a Disney cartoon; but suddenly torn off at the sound of the flush while the green monster going out of the toilets, smiling. Smiley 

  
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Re: The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie)
Reply #12 - 06/03/04 at 03:09:10
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Check out Lane's column for June:
http://www.chesscafe.com/lane/lane.htm

where he answers Tommy Curry's letter.  Look at his evaluation of the position of after 12.Qe2!

It's hard to believe he even gave the diagram of the position with his assertion of equality.  Even more surprising is how he casually dismisses Eric Prie's move.  Well, maybe not...I mean after writing a book on the BDG, you've a got a reputation to maintain.
  

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GMEricPrie
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Re: The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie)
Reply #11 - 05/04/04 at 02:27:30
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In fact, it had been given in the main thread "Would members..."
http://www.france-echecs.com/index.php?mode=showComment&art=20040421193649143
  
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Re: The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie)
Reply #10 - 05/03/04 at 16:47:23
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I shall look at 5. g6. Je voudrais regarder les conversations dans francais. 

What is the website?
  
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GMEricPrie
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Re: The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie)
Reply #9 - 05/03/04 at 15:57:05
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Personnally I think 5.Bf4, stoping e7-e5, is better or at least trickier.  This is the line I am having the debate on in the abovementionned (french) chess forum.

I play 5...g6 then but I prefer to warn you  Smiley : I have analysed it with one of the best World hopes in the person of Maxime Vachier-Lagrave, equal 1st and vice-World U 14 champion on tie break (without having met the champion...) 2003!
  
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Re: The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie)
Reply #8 - 05/03/04 at 15:37:28
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GM Prie, I could not find a satisfactory reply for Nf5, but what would happen against 5. Bf4?
  
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GMEricPrie
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Re: The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie)
Reply #7 - 05/01/04 at 16:16:13
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Here we go! Smiley

8...Nf5 9.Bb5+ Bd7 (Thank you for 9... c6 Teyko Wink 10.Bxd7 I presume Qxd7 11.fxe4 Nd6
Do note that, without having had to gambit a pawn, I am already well ahead in development...
  
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Wonderer
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Re: The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie)
Reply #6 - 05/01/04 at 15:52:45
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Quote:
Posted by: TopNotch Posted on: Today at 2:57pm 
Wow!! you really slammed Pete and his website   
 
Just on a point of clarity though I thought that the Nimzovitch counter gambit was merely a branch of the Falkbeer.  


Well, you exaggerate as usual. I was just making a point regarding analysis on the net, (or in databases for that matter). There's so much available 'information' that one must screen what to look at. 

FYI 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 e4 - is the Falkbeer - and it's certainly not so equal that I'd believe anyone who stated that followed by "Period." - Such a comment suggests to me
a) that the speaker is sloppy with facts and 
b) won't listen to arguments other than his own. 

So Im not going to spend time on his 'facetious' analysis, just like I won't spend more time on the Hubsch.

But for the record, I have nothing against his site. It seemed like a nice forum, and I only spent about 5 minutes there (for obvious reasons), so I really can't offer any opinion on the rest of the site. As I certainly shan't return there.

Quote:
Wonderer you must appreciate that it is not possible to deal with every possibility within the limitations of a post on a forum, and while 7.c3 has done well statistically, a database search on http://www.chesslive.de/ (2 Million plus games) revealed that it was only tried in 5 games which is much too small a sample to draw any meaningful conclusions.


Well, after 6.-Qe7 I found 12 games. If 5 of these are with 7.c3 and white wins, I would mention it!  Grin 

I don't believe in the BDG, but I at least recognise that it has practical use for non GMs, who play for fun.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 Nxe4 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bc4 e5 6.Qh5 Qe7 7.c3 exd4 8.Bg5 Qd7 9.0-0-0 Bc5! 

does look strong when one follows the analysis (which follows fritz exactly btw, just an observation...)


But 10.Bf6!? looks like an interesting way to meet it, e.g: 10...gxf6 11.Qxc5 Qe7 12.Qxd4 Nc6 13.Qe3 with compensation. Though I leave the rest to the BDGers...


Quote:
I'm already running a message board so if you have something to reply come to njscf.org and we'll be happy to ease your wondering.


Thank you very much for your invitation, but I think I can manage to start fritz myself.  Grin
« Last Edit: 05/01/04 at 17:50:06 by »  
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Pete Tamburro
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Re: The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie)
Reply #5 - 05/01/04 at 15:23:09
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OK, Wonderer,

Since TopNotch (an IM whose opinion I respect greatly) asked me to reply over here, I will. I'm already running a message board so if you have something to reply come to njscf.org and we'll be happy to ease your wondering.

A couple of points:
1. You claim to have read the message board. Well, read more carefully. Your Falkbeer comment is facetious. We only encourage politeness on my site. First of all the NimzoCounterGambit is a line in the Falkbeer. When I made my point about the Falkbeer equalizing I did not mention the N.C.G. at all because other Falkbeer lines equalize as well.
2. You should not rely on databases so much. Results are not moves. Especially when it comes to the B-D attack.
3. Even the games you give are of extremely poor quality of opening play.
4. None of the games address any of my analysis that you supposedly read.

So, if you have found a flaw in my analysis, then by all means come to njscf.org message board and we will deal with it. And be polite.

Pete Tamburro
  
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TopNotch
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Re: The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie)
Reply #4 - 05/01/04 at 13:57:26
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Wow!! you really slammed Pete and his website  Grin

Just on a point of clarity though I thought that the Nimzovitch counter gambit was merely a branch of the Falkbeer.

Anyway that aside, it is funny that you mentioned 7.c3 as a possible improvement, as some months ago this very possiblity was discussed on Pete's site, the content of which I have included below for Wonder's benefit as well as other forum members reading this:

The following was adapted from Pete's website njscf.org: 

'Well, don't sign any book deals yet on new editions of the Blackmar-Diemer. The Black opponent was pleasantly cooperative:

(small note: the h6 move by Black in the following notes is not threatening to take the bishop, but threatening Qf5)

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 Nxe4 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bc4 e5 6.Qh5 Qe7 7.c3 

[ As for the other possibilities: 7.a3 Nc6 8.Bg5 Qd7 9.0-0-0 h6 10.Be3 exd4 11.Ne2 g6 12.Qh4 Qe7 13.Qxe7+ Bxe7 14.Nxd4 Nxd4 15.Rxd4 f5 16.Rd2 Rh7 17.Rhd1 g5 18.Bd4 Bd6 with a small edge to Black; or 7.Bb3 exd4 8.Bg5 g6 9.Qh4 (9.Bxe7 gxh5 10.Bxf8 Rxf8 Black is better) 9...Qb4+ 10.Bd2 Qd6 11.Qxe4+ Qe7 12.Qxe7+ Bxe7 13.Nf3 c5 14.0-0-0 Nc6 15.Rhe1 Bg4 16.Bd5 Bxf3 17.Bxf3 Kd7 again, with a small edge to Black] 

7...exd4 

[We'll go in the direction of the game, but, of course, I, at the risk of being repetitive, would prefer developing with 7...Nc6 8.Bg5 Qd7 9.0-0-0 h6 10.Bh4 Qf5 11.Qxf5 Bxf5 12.Ne2 Na5 13.Bb5+ c6 14.Ba4 Be6 15.d5 Bd7 16.Rhe1 g5 17.Bg3 Bg7 18.b4 Nc4 19.Bb3 Nb6 and Black is having a good time] 

8.Bg5 Qd7 9.0-0-0 Bc5!

[Ah, development. Your opponent's g6 is inferior, although he could have made White's life a little harder, by, ahem, developing: 9...g6 10.Qh4 Nc6 11.Qxe4+ Be7 12.Nf3 0-0 (12...Qf5 13.Qxf5 Bxf5 14.Rhe1 dxc3 15.Rxe7+ Nxe7 16.Re1 cxb2+ 17.Kxb2 Be6 18.Bxe6 fxe6 19.Rxe6 0-0-0 20.Rxe7 Rd7 21.Re6 Rd6 22.Re4 Rf8 and White's clearly better, but you would have to work at it.) 13.Bxe7 Qxe7 14.Qxe7 Nxe7 15.Nxd4 Nf5 16.Rhe1 Nd6 17.Bd5 Bg4 18.f3 Bd7 19.c4 c5 20.Nc2 Rad8 21.a3 a5 22.b4 b6 23.bxa5 bxa5 24.Re3 Ba4 and White really has to work hard to win this one] 

10.Nf3 0-0 11.Nxd4 Qg4 12.Qxg4 Bxg4 13.Rde1 Bxd4 14.cxd4 Bf5 15.Bd5 Nc6 16.Bxc6 bxc6 17.Be7 Rfe8 18.Bc5 a5 19.Kd2 a4 20.Re3 Reb8 and White can't take advantage of the doubled pawns because of the opposite colored bishops. That's how that game could have gone after cxd4. Even here, Black's OK, but Nc6 seems better'.  - End Quote.
« Last Edit: Aug 30th, 2003, 10:29am by Pete Tamburro  

Wonderer you must appreciate that it is not possible to deal with every possibility within the limitations of a post on a forum, and while 7.c3 has done well statistically, a database search on http://www.chesslive.de/ (2 Million plus games) revealed that it was only tried in 5 games which is much too small a sample to draw any meaningful conclusions.

In any case Wonderer I am glad that you decided to pay the njscf.org site a visit and regarding your attack on it I would like to say more, however Pete is quite capable of defending himself, so I will give him the opportunity to do so. 

Till then take care.

Top  Grin

Postscript: For completeness, the game referred to above was Wickens vs Saliba - Correspondence 1965.

 




 


 
  

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Wonderer
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Re: The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie)
Reply #3 - 05/01/04 at 04:47:06
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Not that I really wish to defend this gambit, but if anyone pretends to analyse it, they should at least take a look at the evidence (i.e. the games played) and see what is played.

According to the evidence, white has scored extremely well with 7.c3, so one kind of wonders what's wrong with it?

Even if the games are by to me unknown players, but that goes for Mr Tamburro as well, (and seeing on that site TopNotch recommended, that he can't even differ between the Falkbeer and the Nimzowitsch counter gambit, (- despite his claim to have all KG literature for the last 100 years!), so I wouldn't put too much trust in his analysis. There's so much crappy analysis on the net, that one really has to choose what to take seriously!  8)



Gegner J - Ruhe [D00]
corr corr, 1982

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 Nxe4 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bc4 e5 6.Qh5 Qe7 7.c3 g6

[ 7...exd4 8.Bg5 Qd7 9.0-0-0 d3 

( 9...g6 10.Qh4 Qg4 11.Rxd4 Be7 12.Rxe4 Qxh4 13.Rxe7+ Kf8 14.Rxf7+ 1-0 Wickens-Saliba/corr 1965 (14);  

9...Nc6 10.Re1 g6 11.Rxe4+ Be7 12.Qe2 dxc3 13.Bb5 cxb2+ 14.Qxb2 Rg8 15.Rxe7+ Qxe7 16.Bxe7 Kxe7 17.Bxc6 bxc6 18.Qb4+ Ke8 19.Nf3 Be6 20.Qb7 Rc8 21.Nd4 Kd7 22.Nxc6 Bd5 23.Rd1 1-0 Schug-Von Westphalen/corr 1985 (23)) 

10.Nf3 g6 11.Qh4 Qg4 12.Qxg4 Bxg4 13.Rhe1 Gegner J-Weber/corr [PJB/p 1980 (13)] 

8.Qxe5 Qxe5 9.dxe5 Bg7

10.Bf4

[ 10.f4 c6 11.Ne2 Bf5 12.0-0 Ke7 13.Ng3 Nd7 14.Re1 f6 15.Nxe4 fxe5 16.fxe5 Rhe8 17.Bg5+ Kf8 18.Nf6 Rxe5 19.Nxd7+ Bxd7 20.Rxe5 Bxe5 21.Rf1+ 1-0 Hunstock,J-Haack/cr BdF/M-Klasse [BR8 1988 (21)] 

10...0-0 11.e6 Bxe6 12.Bxe6 fxe6 13.Bxc7 Nc6 14.Ne2 Rf7 15.Bf4 Raf8 16.Be3 Ne5 17.0-0 Nc4 18.Bc1 Be5 19.b3 Nb6 20.Bh6 Rc8 21.Rac1 Nd5 22.Bd2 b5 23.c4 bxc4 24.Rxc4 Rxc4 25.bxc4 e3 26.fxe3 Bxh2+ 27.Kxh2 Rxf1 28.cxd5 Rf2 29.d6 1-0

  
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Re: The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie)
Reply #2 - 04/30/04 at 23:25:25
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What about an option (f) namely 5...e5.  Grin

The move 5...e5 was recommended by Pete Tamburo on the njscf.org website as a comfortable equaliser against the Hubsch, and I see no compelling reason to disagree. You judge for yourselves:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 Nxe4 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bc4 

Known as the Hubsch gambit, it’s  not as good as its reputation, which follows from Black’s playing 5…e6 or 5…Bf5. However, we suggest 5…e5!  Interestingly enough, GM Gary Lane has this as a bad move in his book, which only encourages people to play this as White. This is good for players of the Black pieces. What Lane didn’t know at the time he put this book together is that the game he cites involved a Black player whose rating wasn’t even a Class B player. The game went 6.Qh5 Qe7 7.Qxe5 Qxe5?? (our question marks) 8.dxe5 Nc6 9.Bf4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 0-0-0 11.Bxf7 Bc5 12.e6 Be8 13.Nh3 and White was clearly winning.

           Lane does point out that neither 5.Bf4 Bf5  or 5.Be3 Bf5 6.f3 c6 7.Bc4 e6 8.Qe2 Nd7 9.fxe4 Bxe4 10.Nf3 Nf6 11.0-0 Be7 12.Ng5 Bg6 13.Bxe6 h6 14.Bxf7+ Bxf7 15.Nxf7 Kxf7 16.Qh5+ g6 17.Qh3 Qc8 or 5.f3 c5 6.Be3 cxd4 7.Bxd4 Nc6 8.Bb5 or even 5….e6 6.Be3 Bd6 7.Qd2 Nc6 8.0-0-0 lead to much for White.

e5 6.Qh5 Qe7 7.Qxe5 Nc6! 

           Of course! Why should Black take the queen? Let White help Black develop. He is forced to take as the threat (if White moves the queen away)  of Qb4+ is too strong. 

8.Qxe7+ Bxe7 

And now White and Black have a variety of ways to go:

a.     9.Be3 0-0 10.Ne2 Kh8 11.Nf4 f5 12.0-0-0 Na5 7.Be2 Bd6 

b.     9.Ne2 Nb4! 10.Bb3 Be6 11.Ba4+ c6 12.Nf4 Bc4 13.a3 Nd5 14.Nxd5 Bxd5 15.c3 g5! 

c.     9.d5 Nd4! 10.Bb3 0-0 11.Bf4 Nxb3 12.axb3 Rd8 13.c4 Bb4+ 14.Ke2 c6 

d.     9.c3 Na5 10.Bd5 f5 11.b4 c6 12.Bxe4 fxe4 13.bxa5 Bd8 14.Ba3 Bxa5 15.Kd2 Bf5 16.Ne2 0-0-0 

The above are what I.A. Horowitz used to call “idea variations.” They are simply different ways to go that you ought to look at. The key is that the Blackmar-Diemer regular gambit lines can be avoided and you as Black can look forward to holding your own in a lively middle game.

Now, what happens if White knows you are going to do this and decides to force the issue by:

1.d4 Nf6 2.f3  … 

Well, then you can play 2…d5 or 2…c5. Let’s look at 2…d5:

2. …  d5 

3.e4   c5! 

If White pushes with 4.e5 Ng8! is a great form of the French Defense as the queen bishop will be able to get out to f5 and the king knight will not be getting in the way at d7 as usual and can use the route of Ng8-e7-f5 to put pressure on d4. This may necessitate h5 at some point to prevent g4, but Black has a fine game. If White plays 4.Nc3 dxe4 enters the Blackmar-Diemer, but on Black’s terms: 5.d5 exf3 3.Nxf3 Bg4! (Teichmann’s Defense with a difference—c5 is in for Black) 4.h3 Bc8! Black does not want to be harassed on the kingside nor help White develop. Why lose a move? Because now White has a weakness on g3. For example, if White plays 5.Bc4 then Qd6! gives Black a big edge. Thus 5.Bf4 is forced. Then Black has either Qb6 (which he normally doesn’t have in the B-D) or a6 to choose from, and has a great game a pawn up. 

We received a question on the message board that asked what would happen if White did not cooperate with 7.Qxe5? "Theory" has only ever given 7.Qxe5, but the question is a good one because once the White forces find out about 7...Nc6 they will likely be looking for alternatives! What follows is the analysis we gave to counter the most reasonable White alternatives to 7.Qxd5:

(Small note: the h6 move by Black in the following notes is not threatening to take the bishop, but threatening Qf5)

7.c3 Nc6 (the questioner gave a game with exd4, which is playable and continued 8.Bg5 Qd7 9.0-0-0 g6?  We suggested, instead, 9...Bc5 10.Nf3 0-0 11.Nxd4 Qg4 12.Qxg4 Bxg4 13.Rde1 Bxd4 14.cxd4 Bf5 15.Bd5 Nc6 16.Bxc6 bxc6 17.Be7 Rfe8 18.Bc5 a5 19.Kd2 a4 20.Re3 Reb8 and White can't take advantage of the doubled pawns because of the opposite colored bishops. However, we pointed out that 7...Nc6 seemed better) 8.Bg5 Qd7 9.0-0-0 h6 10.Bh4 Qf5 11.Qxf5 Bxf5 12.Ne2 Na5 13.Bb5+ c6 14.Ba4 Be6 15.d5 Bd7 16.Rhe1 g5 17.Bg3 Bg7 18.b4 Nc4 19.Bb3 Nb6 and Black is having a good time.OR

   7.a3 Nc6 8.Bg5 Qd7 9.0-0-0 h6 10.Be3 exd4 11.Ne2 g6 12.Qh4 Qe7 13.Qxe7+ Bxe7 14.Nxd4 Nxd4 15.Rxd4 f5 16.Rd2 Rh7 17.Rhd1 g5 18.Bd4 Bd6 with a small edge to Black.OR

7.Bb3 exd4 8.Bg5 g6 9.Qh4 (9.Bxe7 gxh5 10.Bxf8 Rxf8, Black is better) Qb4+ 10.Bd2 Qd6 11.Qxe4+ Qe7 12.Qxe7+ Bxe7 13.Nf3 c5 14.0-0-0 Nc6 15.Rhe1 Bg4 16.Bd5 Bxf3 17.Bxf3 Kd7 and again with a small edge to Black.

Analysis and annotations by Pete Tamburo

 
So if the above analysis is valid, then it begs the question as to what white is trying to prove with this gambit. If he is trying to show that with careful play that white can equalise, then he may succeed, but for most players equality with white is not considered success.  Wink

The ball is now back in your court.

Top  Grin

Postscript: By the way, some of you guys should check out the njscf.org website and forum as it has plenty of other goodies for the amateur player who wants to improve. Highly recommended, I give it two thumbs up.  
« Last Edit: 05/01/04 at 01:04:40 by TopNotch »  

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Re: The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie)
Reply #1 - 04/30/04 at 21:17:17
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I've personally like 5...Bf5 for Black and if 6.g4 then 6...Bd7!.  Benjamin lost a game with this against Diebert (I think.) but I don't believe that was due to the opening.
  
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The Hubsch Gambit (for GM Prie)
04/30/04 at 21:01:10
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In the main line of the Hubsch Gambit 

1.d4 Nf6  2.Nc3 d5 3. e4 Nxe4 4. Nxe4 dxe4 5. Bc4

Black now has 5 choices. 
a) 5...e6
b) 5...Bf5
c)5...g6
d)5...c5
e)5...Nc6

Now GM Prie believes that this is a bust to the Blackmar Diemar Gambit, however I believe their is only on line to be concerned about. This is 5...Nc6

After 5...Nc6 6. c3 e5!? 7. d5 Ne7 8. f3 now the two responses are 8...Nf5 or 8...Ng6



1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. e4 Nxe4 4. Nxe4 dxe4 5. Bc4 Nc6 6. c3 e5 7. d5 Ne7 8. f3 Nf5 (8... Ng6 9. Qe2 Bf5 (9... f5 10.Bd2 Bc5 11. O-O-O O-O 12. fxe4 fxe4 =+) 10. Bb5+ Bd7 11. Bxd7+ Qxd7 12. fxe4 O-O-O 13. Be3 Qa4 14. Qf3 =) 9. Bb5+ c6 10. dxc6 Qxd1+ 11. Kxd1 Ke7 12. fxe4 Nd6 13. Bd3 += *

This is just home analysis but I don't see anything to be afraid of GM Prie. Please show me the line that must be discussed.

Also remember we have 5). Bf4 and 5) Be3 to be tested.
  
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