15...Rfd8 and not Rfc8, Teyko, read me better, where, in the same spirit of your last post, "Black is completely winning, a solid pawn up" 

I am not at home these days and I cannot use my ADSL connection neither am I in the mood of analysing the BDG.
We shall resume this interesting discussion in september.

This is the moves in 9. Be3

GM Prie,Tommy - -1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 e5 4.Qh5 Nc6 5.dxe5 Bb4 6.Bd2 g6 7.Qe2 Nd4 8.Qd1 Bf5 9.Be3 9...Nc6 10.Bb5 Nge7 11.Nge2 0–0 12.a3 Bxc3+ 13.Nxc3 Nxe5 14.Bh6 14...Qxd1+ 15.Rxd1 Rfc8 16.Bf4 

The Blackmar Diemar lives in light of the Lemberger Countergambit. Now if I can only solve the Hubsch.

Dear BDG-ers, dear Eric,
    sorry for delay in our discussion, analysis take some time to be correct and sound. Finally, have a look on this lines, which seems o.k. White has an advantage here. 

(1) BDG - Lemberger with 4..Nc6 [B01]
home, 09.09.2003
[Analysis by Rajmund Emanuel ]

/ B01 or D00 1.d4 d5 2.e4 / - 1.e4 d5 2.d4! dxe4 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nge2! Nc6 It has been mentioned almost like the refutation of BDG on the www.chesspublishing.com web site... 5.d5 Nce7 6.Ng3 Nf6 7.Bc4 c6 8.Bg5! Nfxd5 as recommended by GM Eric Prie 9.Ngxe4 [9.Qh5!? is an interesting try, but black has strong continuation with Qb6! 10.Ngxe4 Be6! 11.Nd6+ Kd7 12.Nde4 and now, he/she is able to hold the position by Rd8, Kc8 manouvre and the position remains rougly equal then.] 

9...f5 

A) 9...Bf5 10.Qf3 f6 
(10...Nxc3 11.Nxc3 Qd4 (11...f6 12.Be3 Bxc2?! as far as I remember this move has never been good for black in BDG (12...Qc8 13.0–0 with more than good compensation) 13.Qe2 Bg6 14.0–0 (or even 14.Rd1!? Qa5 15.h4! Nf5 16.h5 Nxe3 17.fxe3 Bf5 18.0–0 e4 following two spectacular moves by ChessTiger2.0 19.Nb5!! Bc8 20.b4! Qb6 21.h6 g6 22.Rxf6+-) 14...Qa5 15.Rfd1 Nf5 16.Qg4 Bb4 17.Nd5! Kf8 18.Nxb4 Nxe3 19.fxe3 Qxb4 20.Rd7 Re8 21.Rc7±) 12.Be2!? f6 13.Be3 Qd6 14.0–0 with initiative) 
11.0–0–0 Bxe4 (11...fxg5 12.Nxd5! cxd5 13.Rxd5 Nxd5 14.Qxf5 Qe7 15.Rd1!+-) 12.Nxe4 fxg5 13.Nxg5 Qa5 14.Qf7+ Kd7 15.Bb3 Kc7 16.Ne6+ Kb6 17.c4 Nb4 18.c5+ Ka6 19.a3 (19.Rd7 Rc8 20.Kb1±) 19...Nbd5 20.Bc4+ b5 21.Bxd5+-; 

B) 9...f6?! 10.Qh5+! (spectacular, but not the best  is 10.Bxf6?! gxf6 11.Nxf6+ Nxf6! now, white is winning queen with a well-known motif, but the position remains very unclear to me (but certainly not 11...Kf7? 12.Qf3‚ which gives white strong attack) 12.Bf7+ Kxf7 13.Qxd8 Rg8 unclear) 10...Ng6 11.0–0–0‚ with strong attack e.g. 11...Be6 (11...fxg5 12.Nxd5 cxd5 13.Rxd5 Qc7 14.Bb5+ Kf7 15.Nxg5++-) 12.Bxf6 gxf6 13.Bxd5 cxd5 14.Nxd5 Bxd5 15.Rxd5 Qe7 16.Rhd1±] 

10.Ng3 Qa5 [10...Nxc3?? 11.Bf7+! Kxf7 12.Qxd8+-; 10...f4?! 11.Nge4 Bf5 12.0–0± black is tied up]

11.0–0 Nxc3 12.bxc3 Nd5 [12...Qxc3 13.Bb3 (13.Qh5+?! g6 14.Qh4 h6! 15.Bf6 Rh7 16.Rfe1 Qd4 17.Qxd4 exd4 18.Bxd4=) 13...Qd4 14.Qe2!‚ with attack e.g. 14...Qg4? 15.Qxe5!! spectacular move, bishop is forbidden 15...Qxg5 16.Ne4!+-] 13.Re1 Bd6 14.Bb3±


However, I´ve found one line where there is only = for white. It is on move 10, though black has to make two strong moves in a row to hold position and even after them the position is o.k. for practical game purposes, from the theoretical point of view, it is not enough. For those who want to win even in correspondence play, enjoy improvement over the line at:

http://www.mujweb.cz/www/rajmunde/horizon.htm

For great Bogoljubow analysis click here:

http://www.mujweb.cz/www/rajmunde/ec_ena_bo.htm

Enjoy it and have a good time.
And Eric, I´m looking forward to your answer and I hope you have a good time at Mitropa Cup.

Patrik

Quote:


As you know, GM Prie I am having trouble making the 9. Rc1 line work, but I believe I have found a tenable continuation for white. 

11. Bg5 f6! 12. exf6!?

Quote:

In the 9.Be3 line I play 14. Bh6

In the 9. Rc1 line I play 12. Qxd4

Bonjour Eric!

    in my game you suggest after 4.Nge2 Nc6 5.d5 Nce7 6.Ng3 f5 7.Bc4 c6 (instead of a6) and after 8.Bg5 Nfxd5, but in this position, there is no knight on f6 yet. Do you mean 6.Ng3 Nf6!? 7.Bc4 c6 8.Bg5 Nfxd5 line or 6.Ng3 f5 7.Bc4 Nf6 line? We can choose line and then I can share my analysis with you, it looks white has an upper hand in these positions.

Sincerely yours

7 violets

Hmm ... This one move at a time drip-feed is getting a bit wearing ... any chance you guys can string more than a couple of moves of this together?! 

I had the wrong position set up on the board. it should be 11. Bg5 in the 9. Rc1 line. I don't want to get into Nf3+.

Not at all, MnB, this a new concept of Online Analysis!

You can discuss the moves, take them back, and it is over only when you can agree on an indisputable assessment of the position, out of the opening, after having 'exhausted' all the tracks. 
Everybody is invited to participate, and their analysis, when relevant, will be mentioned in the updates !

It is very useful when you study a line with little or highly specialized (or biased  ) theory on it. 
For instance, in what is considered as the main line of the Sneiders, there is only one single game in the database, as given by Teyko ! in which actually  the final position is completely ‘flat’. Already a little success for Black…
Anyway, I did think of another move instead of 11…Qd5…as Teyko sensed by playing the better 11.Ne2 to which I reply by castling 11…0-0.

This is a real debate of ideas : Black has a slight lead in development, in this symmetrical structure, and in consequence is the first to hit the opponent’s e pawn but in return has conceded some annoying black squares weaknesses on the king side. 

The more I study this position the more I get interested into 5…g6, on which I have  found 7 games, on the other hand, and 4 with 6.Qg5 including that one :
 
Sneiders,E - Morin,J
corr, 1988
 
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Cc3 e5 4.Dh5 Cc6 5.dxe5 g6 6.Dg5 Fe7 7.Df4 f5! 8.exf6 Cxf6 9.Cxe4 ? Cxe4 10.Dxe4 Cb4 ! -+ 11.Fb5+ ? (11.Bg5 Bf5 12.Bb5+ c6 13. Qe5 is a lot more complicated)  c6 12.Fa4 Da5 13.c3 Ff5 0–1

As for 9.Rc1 Qd7 10.Nge2  I am rather optimistic after 10…0-0-0 

I am still looking at the Rc1 line. 9. Rc1 Qd7 10. Nxe4 looks intuitive, but I have to evaluate it closer. 

GM Prie, what did you think about my analysis to your 5. g6 move, is Qg5 a legitimate idea or is the theory more sound?

Looks like an email game Teyko-Prie.

9.Be3 Nc6  10. Bb5


9. Rc1 Nc6 10. Bb5 Where you still going to play Nc6 against Rc1?

In our game GM Prie, 

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 e5 4. Qh5 Nc6 5. dxe5 Bb4

6. Bd2 g6 7. Qe2 Nd4 8. Qd1 Bf5 9. Be3 (9. Rc1!?)

I will play Be3 because it is allegedly the best, but I am looking into Rc1 I need to look at some lines but Be3 is my move.

6...g6 then 7.Qe2 Nd4 8.Qd1 Bf5 your move
As for myself, I hesitated with 5...g6 !?

That is what makes the test of practice so valueable when you study 'uncommon' openings with specialists.

Toto sa mi paci! 
Then we can start building something!
Indeed, I had not considered 7.Bc4, just 7.Bb5+ , but instead of 7...a6, why not 7...c6 ?
With the idea 8.Bg5 Nfxd5 and Black seems doing fine.

It is your move teyko,  I have already played 5...Bb4.

Hello, 
    I played a game in Lemberger line using 4.Nge2 variation, so-called Rasmussen attack. I consider it the most decent and sensitive try against 3...e5. 

[Event "Rose and cross"]
[Site "www.sachy.sk"]
[Date "2003.08.13"]
[Round "1"]
[White "sevenviolets (2130)"]
[Black "schwartz (2190)"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 e5 Lemberger countergambit, among others also recommended by Scandinavian (1.e4 d5) specialist IM Sikora-Lerch   
4. Nge2! perhaps the only posibility for white to play for advantage Nc6!? strong reply, also recommended by GM Eric Prie at www.chesspublishing.com ;
5. d5 Nce7 6. Ng3 f5 Eric considers 6..Nf6!? stronger, I´m not sure about it 7. Bc4 a6 8. O-O Ng6 9. Nh5!? b5 10. Bb3 b4 11. Na4 f4 12. Qe2! Qh4 13. Qc4 Kd8 14. d6 and white has very strong attack Ra7 15. Ng3 cxd6 16. Nxe4 Nf6 17. Qxb4 Rc7 18. Rd1 Nxe4 19. Qxe4 Bb7 20. Bd5 Qg4 21. f3 Bxd5 22. Rxd5 Qd7 23. b3 Rc6 24. Ba3 Be7 25. c4 Rf8 26. c5 Ke8 27. Nb6 Qc7 28. Nc4 dxc5 29. Nxe5 Nxe5 30. Rxe5 Rf7 31. Rc1 Kd8 32. Bb4 Rff6 33. Bc3 Qd7 34. Ba5+ Ke8 35. Re1 Qd4+ 36. Qxd4 cxd4 37. Rxe7+ Kf8 38. Bb4 h6 39. Rd7+ Kg8 40. Rxd4 Kh7 41. Be7 Rf7 42. Rc4 Rb6 43. Rce4 Kg6 44. Bd8 Rb8 45. Re6+ Kh7 46. Re7 Rxe7 47. Bxe7 Re8 48. Kf1 Kg8 49. a4 Kf7 50. Bb4 Rb8 51. Re4 g5 52. Ke2 a5 53. Bxa5 Rxb3 54. Bd2 Rb6 55. a5 Ra6 56. Re5 Kf6 57. Rb5 Ke7 58. Rb6 Rxb6 59. axb6 Kd7 60. Bc3 Kc6 61. Bd4 1-0

Sincerely yours
Sevenviolets