Normal Topic anti-BDG line suggested by Wahls (Read 5253 times)
Sevenviolets
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Re: anti-BDG line suggested by Wahls
Reply #8 - 12/02/04 at 12:53:23
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Dear Friends,
   GM Wahls wrote a good book on Scandinavian defence, certainly, but his part on BDG is only of little above average quality. He points out some interesting ideas but there are some mistakes in his analysis too. For more try to find Vienna games played by BDG expert Mr. Leisebein here:
http://holgererbe.gmxhome.de/dvc/englisch/theo.html

By the way, this ALCHEMY line with 8.Ng5 Bg6 9.Ne2 c5!? was played for the first time (as far as I´m aware of) by Leisebein himself against Jorge Quinnones, in 2003. Two super-strong BDG experts against each other. Unfortunatelly, Jorge did lose on time because of an e-mail box problems. 

Enjoy link.

Sevenviolets/Patrik Schoupal
 
  
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Teyko
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Re: anti-BDG line suggested by Wahls
Reply #7 - 12/02/04 at 10:34:20
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Hey Bonsai! I made a mistake as well because I copied your thread and put it on shredder, so I could search my databases and it interpreted nd7 on move 10. 

Now in your thread after 11...Nd7 I would play 12. Ne5.

In Leisebein-Jacobs 2001 play continued 

12...Nb6 13. h4 Nd5 14. Nxd5 cxd5 15. Nxg6 hxg6 16. Bxd6 Qxd6 17. Bb5+ Kf8 18. g5 a6 19. Bd3 Kg8 20.Rdf1 Rf8 21. Kb1 b5 22. Rh3 b4 23.Rfh1 Ra8 24.h5 gxh5 25.Rxh5 Rxh5 26.Rxh5 g6 27. Rh1 Bf8 28. Bxg6 fxg6 29.Qh3 kf7 30.Qh7+ Ke8 31.Rf1 Rc8 32. Kf7+ Kd8 33. Qxf8+ Qxf8 34. Rxf8 Kd7 35. Rxc8! Rxc8 36. c3 bxc3 37 b4!! 1-0 (black resigns)
  
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Re: anti-BDG line suggested by Wahls
Reply #6 - 12/02/04 at 05:35:56
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Teyko, I thought it was clear from my previous post that I meant to follow your previous variation and to play 10...Be7 (even though I somehow completely missed out on including a tenth move for black - I've corrected that in my previous post now). I certainly did write 11...Nd7 and had white making moves 10 and 11. Would you still want to play d4-d5 after 10...Be7? I assume not (seeing your other post above). ...Nd7 only on move 11. 

MnB: 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.e4 dxe4 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4 Bg6 6.g5 Nd5 7.Nxe4 and Wahls suggests 7...Nc6 and claims this is "an ambitious attempt at refuting white's play. The more modest 7...e6 is also playable". According to the variations he gives 8.Bb5 e6 (8.c3 e5) is probably white's best choice.
  
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Teyko
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Re: anti-BDG line suggested by Wahls
Reply #5 - 12/01/04 at 21:41:18
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Bonsai, 

Your analysis is incorrect. The variation should follow as such:

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. f3 Bf5 5. fxe4 Nxe4 6. Qf3 Nd6 7. Bf4 e6 8. O-O-O c6 9. g4 Bg6 10. Qe3 Nd7 11. d5 cxd5 12. Rxd5 {The whole point behind the Stroebel Attack.White is in a better position from this point on and has legitimate attacking threats} Qc7 13. Rd2 a6 14.h4 h6 15. h5 Bh7 16. Qd4 e5 17. Bxe5 Nxe5 18. Nd5 Qa5 19. Qxe5+ Kd8 20. Rh3 {An awesome move, thank you very much.} Rc8 21. Re3 f6 22. Qd4 and white has an awesome advantage.

  
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Re: anti-BDG line suggested by Wahls
Reply #4 - 12/01/04 at 20:53:01
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After 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.e4 dxe4 4.f3 Bf5 I think 5.g4 Bg6 6.g5 Nd5 7.Nxe4 is White's best chance.
  

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Re: anti-BDG line suggested by Wahls
Reply #3 - 12/01/04 at 13:13:12
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I shall watch this thread with a lot of attention since I am ready to play this line...as White!!
1.d4 d5 2.Bg5 f6 3.Bf4 e5!? 4.dxe4 Nc6 5.Nf3.

What bothers me is that having had Wahls book on the Scandinavian in hand and having checked what he said about my games on it, he tends to rely more on tactical-Fritzy 'brutal strength' rather than on the practical  aspects and easyness to play these positions.
  
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Bonsai
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Re: anti-BDG line suggested by Wahls
Reply #2 - 12/01/04 at 12:11:11
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In the variation that you call Stroebel Attack, 1.d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4.f3 Bf5 5.fxe4 Nxe4 6.Qf3 Nd6 7.Bf4 e6 8.0-0-0 c6 9. g4 Bg6 10.Qe3 Be7 11.Nf3 I really don't think black should play 11...h5, the only reason why that whole sacrifical attacking idea 11...h5 12. d5 exd5 13. Nxd5! exd5 14 Rxd5 might work (not sure whether it does, but no need to allow such complications when my position is just clearly better) is because black has weakened himself with a premature h7-h5. Maybe I'll have to play ...h5 (or ...h6) later if white plays h2-h4, but for the time being simple development with 11...Nd7 has to be much more sensible (and is in fact recommended by Wahls). Now 12.d5 really doesn't lead anywhere, a quick variation I cobbled together with Shredder is 12...cxd5 13.Nxd5 exd5 14.Bxd6 Be4 15.Bxe7 Qxe7 16.Bd3 0-0 (reduced material = no real danger for black's king) 17.Bxe4 dxe4 18.Rhe1 Nf6 19.g5 Ng4 20.Qf4 f5, when black is clearly better.

As to 1.d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4.f3 Bf5 5.fxe4 Nxe4 6.Qf3 Nxc3 7.bxc3 Bd7 (Wahls also gives brief variations after 7...g6 and 7...e6 in which black returns the pawn and is a bit better as a result) 8.Bd3!?, I guess that 8...e6 followed by simple development is probably fine for black (9.Qxb7 Nc6 looks quite pleasant for black to me), but quite possibly not more than that. I didn't find that Leisbein-Kracht game (could also be leisebein, couldn't it? but the game itself is probably not that theoretically important anyway), but 8.Bd3 looks possibly better than the alternative moves that Wahls analysed for white (8.Bg5, 8.Bc4, 8.Qxb7), but I do think I like 6...Nd6 better than 6...Nxc3.
« Last Edit: 12/02/04 at 05:31:11 by Bonsai »  
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Teyko
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Re: anti-BDG line suggested by Wahls
Reply #1 - 12/01/04 at 09:33:04
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This is the Vienna defense. 

Several games come to mind. The games you site are speaking of the Tartakower variation. 

There is a more reserved approach. 

We have

1.d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4.f3 Bf5 5.fxe4 Nxe4 6. Qf3!?   

6...Nd6 7.Bf4 e6 (The Unziker Defense) 8.0-0-0 c6 9. g4 Bg6 10.Qe3(the Stroebel Attack) Be7 11.Nf3 h5 12. d5 exd5 13. Nxd5! exd5 14 Rxd5 with an attack.

6...Nxc3 7.bxc3 Bd7 8.Bd3!? (leisbein-Kracht 2000)

The Vienna defense is not to worrisome, but you can look up some of the games if you would like.
  
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anti-BDG line suggested by Wahls
12/01/04 at 07:50:44
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This is another anti-BDG line, which I like particularly in practical play. I suppose it's sensible to post it in an extra thread, that way BDG fans might even bother to suggest how they mean to equalise against it.

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 Bf5

Wahls suggested this with the idea of returning material for a very nice position after 5.fxe4 Nxe4 6.Qf3 Nd6! 7.Bf4 e6 8.Bxd6?! Bxd6 9.Qxb7 Nd7.

The genuine over agressive BDG-continuation probably has to be 5.g4 though, 5...Bg6 6.g5 Nd5 and Wahls comments that 7.fxe4 Nxc3 8.bxc3 e5! pretty much shows that 5.g4 is not all that great.

Admittedly white can play *a lot* of different things, but I do like the fact black has very active play himself and I have yet to see anything that promises white anything approaching full equality. Any suggestions as to how white should play?
  
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