Normal Topic New idea in the Tromp with 2...Ne4 3.Bf4? (Read 5212 times)
Joris_Pelemans
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Re: New idea in the Tromp with 2...Ne4 3.Bf4?
Reply #9 - 04/11/05 at 18:05:12
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More thorough analysis has led me to believe that Wells has a point  Smiley. The knight on h3 is no improvement for black at all, it will go to f4 to prevent black's d5 and white is better. Wells considers 12...d5 instead and though I thought this was nonsense because black doens't try to take advantage of the weakness on e3 it looks like we get more or less the same positions as after 12...Nd5 13.e4 fxe3 or 12...Bc5 13.Nh3 Nd5 14.e4 fxe3, but with black's pieces better coordinated. Especially the variation 13.e3 fxe3 14.Ke2 Bc5! (14...Bd6 has been played more often, but seems illogical, as Wells points out) 15.Kxe3 Bd7! (Black immediately supports the b5-b4 advance) seems playable enough to me.

I wonder what Davies says about this line... Since he considers 8...Qxd4 I suspect he doesn't like it or doesn't consider it at all?
  
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Joris_Pelemans
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Re: New idea in the Tromp with 2...Ne4 3.Bf4?
Reply #8 - 04/10/05 at 16:59:09
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Geof, this also looks interesting, thanks, but I consider the position after 12...Lc5 (instead of my 12...Nd5,which allows 13.e4!) 13.g3 (maybe white should play 13.Nh3 Nd5 14.e4 like Wells suggests? After 14...fxe3 the game more or less transposes to my game, but with the white knight on h3 which, I think, is a small improvement for black. Is it enough? I don't know...) 13...Nd5 14.gxf4 Ne3 15.Kd2 Nxf1 16.Rxf1 Rxa2 as being even more interesting! But of course, white can avoid this all by playing Wells recommendation. I'm going to have a look at the positions arising from that variation and if they don't provide enough compensation, then I think it is best to follow Davies' consideration.
  
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Geof_Strayer
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Re: New idea in the Tromp with 2...Ne4 3.Bf4?
Reply #7 - 04/10/05 at 01:16:38
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Joris:

    Davies considers 8...Qxd4 (avoiding the doubled b-pawns) 9.cxd4 e6 to be quite playable and this line seems likely to lead to a complicated French-like endgame after subsequent moves like ...Nc6, ...d5 and ...Bd7 for Black and e2-e4-e5, Be3 and Rc1 for White.  If you don't mind playing interesting endgames (really, more of a middlegame without Qs) I think this line provides chances for both players to outplay an opponent.  I am not sure who has the advantage in the resulting positions (White has some space, Black's position is more compact and he can try to target White's advanced central pawn structure) but I would guess that they are close to = although the position is quite a ways from being a dead draw.

       - Geof
  
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Joris Pelemans
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Re: New idea in the Tromp with 2...Ne4 3.Bf4?
Reply #6 - 04/09/05 at 06:31:34
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You're absolutely right Geof. I had been preparing the last 2-3 days for a match yesterday and my opponent played exactly that variation (with 6.Nd2 and and 10.Nd4)! Unfortunately I had been looking mostly to the sharper lines with 6.d5 and 6.Nd2 followed by 10.Be3, because 10.Nd4 does indeed promise white a permanent edge if he is careful.  The game continued: 10...e5 11.Nxc6 exf4 12.Nd4 Nd5 (my opponent told me that 12...Bc5 en 12...d5 are played more often, but I think these moves also don't exert enough pressure. Especially 12...d5 looks stupid, because one of black's chances lies in the weak e3, so the optiof id Nd5 should be kept open) 13.e4! (Probably the best move, white doesn't have that much developing problems) fxe3 14.g3 Bc5 15.Bc4 Nc7 16.Ke2 (very calm which shows that black has nothing to fear) 0-0 17.Kxe3 b5!? 18.Bb3 b6 (maybe I should have played 18...b4 to keep the ending playable) 19.Nge2 Bb7 20.a3 (no more b4 for me) Rfe8+ 21.Kd2 Re5 22.Rhf1 Rae8 23.Rae1 and I think black doesn't have anything anymore... White is just going to exchange rooks and win the endgame (which happened more or less).

Always frustrating, such lines where you can't create enough play to compensate for your weaknesses.

Is there any line for black that is currently giving him equal + interesting play?
  
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Geof_Strayer
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Re: New idea in the Tromp with 2...Ne4 3.Bf4?
Reply #5 - 04/08/05 at 13:06:29
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I think that the variation after 6.Nd2 cxd4 7.Nb3 Qb6 (7...Qd8 is also very interesting, but maybe slightly better for White also) 8.Qxd4 Nc6 9.Qxb6 axb6 10.Nd4! as suggested by Wells and also covered by Davies is somewhat better for White if he knows what he is doing.  In particular, I seem to win a lot of blitz games in the 10...e5!? 11.Nxc6 exf4 12.Nd4 lines.  Basically, White must be careful for the next 5-10 moves and then he gets a favorable endgame where he can torture his opponent forever.  If you like grinding your opponents down in a += endgame (especially opponents that are hoping for more double-edged positions, hence 2...Ne4 and 3...c5) this line is not a bad choice at all.   

I think it's pretty clear now that the 6.d5 Qb6 7.Bc1 (7.b3 is interesting but I am not convinced it is any good) e6 8.c4 exd5 9.cxd5 c4! 10.e3 Bc5 lines are very problematic for White, so I wouldn't recommend it.  Although White has some tries at earlier deviations, none are convincing.

I don't think there is much hope for a White advantage in the 4.d5 e6 5.f3 Bd6!? lines, either.

So if you play the Tromp with White and you don't like the 6.Nd2 endgame, you should consider 3.Bh4!?, which leads to a number of sharp possibilities for both players.  GM Davies makes a pretty good case that this move has been underestimated, IMO.

      - Geof
  
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M.Nb
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Re: New idea in the Tromp with 2...Ne4 3.Bf4?
Reply #4 - 04/07/05 at 21:15:00
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According to Wells in his book, White maybe can get a minute edge with 6.Nd2. I do not think that very interesting from White's point of view.
  
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Joris Pelemans
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Re: New idea in the Tromp with 2...Ne4 3.Bf4?
Reply #3 - 04/07/05 at 19:01:43
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Perhaps I was a bit fast in my judgement  Embarrassed. After 8.Qxd4 Nc6 9.Qxb6 axb6 10.Be3 e5!? 11.Bxb6 d5 seems to offer black enough compensation. Very interesting stuff!!!
  
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Joris Pelemans
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Re: New idea in the Tromp with 2...Ne4 3.Bf4?
Reply #2 - 04/07/05 at 17:34:49
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Why does white actually play this when he can play 6.Nd2 and have a better position? I mean: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 c5 4.f3 Qa5+ 5.c3 Nf6 6.Nd2! cxd4 7.Nb3 and here the mainline is 7...Qb6 8.Qxd4 Nc6?? This looks terrible: 9.Qxb6 axb6 10.Be3 b5 11.Nd4 b4 12.Nb5 and in almost all games I've seen black very optimistically sacrifices a piece. This can't be right? If black takes on d4 then white is just better. Same after 7...Qd8 8.cxd4...
How can black play for a win here? If there's no active continuation somewhere than I think I'll switch back to 2...e6.
  
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M.Nb
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Re: New idea in the Tromp with 2...Ne4 3.Bf4?
Reply #1 - 04/06/05 at 21:32:52
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1) I have tried 10.e4 Bc5 11.Nh3 d6 12.Bxc4 Bxh3 13.gxh3 in an email game. Black postponed castling with Nbd7 14.Nc3 Rc8. As soon as the game is finished, I will post it. All I can say now is, that I have good drawing chances.
12.Nd2 was played in Lerner,D-Rajlich,V/Stratton Mountain 1999. I feared c3! 13.bxc3 Bxh3 14.Nc4 Bf2+ 15.Kd2 Qc7 16.gxh3 o-o.
2) I am not sure if White gets anything after 12.Nd2 b5 13.a3 Qa5 14.b4 Bxb4 15.Rb1 bxc4 16.Rxb4 Qxd5.
  
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Joris Pelemans
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New idea in the Tromp with 2...Ne4 3.Bf4?
04/06/05 at 19:58:30
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As I understand from previous threads the following is considered more or less as the main line:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 c5 4.f3 Qa5+ 5.c3 Nf6 6.d5 Qb6 7.Bc1 e6 8.c4 exd5 9.cxd5 c4 10.e3 Bc5 11.Kf2

Two questions about this line:

1) Why does white almost never play 10.e4 instead of 10.e3? Gurevich won a game in 1984 against Kochyev which started like this: 10.e4 Bc5 11.Nh3 d6 12.Bxc4 (12.Nd2 with the idea of Nxc4 also looks interesting) Bxh3 13.gxh3 0-0 14.Nc3 Nbd7 15.Kf1 a6 16.Na4 which seems to be neutralizing most of the danger. I have to admit that the black was a bit slow (an earlier Nbd7-Rc8 might have been better), but the whole line doesn't look thàt bad to me...

2) Why doesn't white play 11.Bxc4? I'm not able to find one single game with this move on chessbase!? This makes a whole lot more sense than 11.Kf2 to me. White is immediately able to play 12.Qb3 and still has the option of castling kingside. Maybe black can play 11...Qb4+, but it looks as if white retains a small edge after 12.Nd2 b5!? (12...Bxe3 13.Qb3 and white still retains an edge) 13.a3 Qa5 14.b4 Bxb4 15.Rb1. 

How about 3.Bh4 and 3.h4? What's the current status on these lesser played variations?

Joris
  
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