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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match (Read 50179 times)
Lev D. Zilbermints
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #72 - 06/29/05 at 17:17:32
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Patrick,

I take issue with your calling of my opening, 1 d4 c5 2 b4, the ZILBERMINTS BENONI, "rubbish chess".  The fact of the matter is that I have won with it in regular time control and 5 minute blitz. Now, if you would be so kind as to demonstrate a line that supports your argument?  If you want, start up a new topic, the Zilbermints Benoni. We can discuss it there.

But please don't call openings you do not understand "rubbish chess".  That really does not give you any credit.
  
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Sevenviolets
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #71 - 06/29/05 at 04:50:59
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I am afraid that the draws conceded in this game (and maybe Prie's?) will embolden BDG trolls everywhere else. Draws in their vocabulary seems to be equated to a win, and  further "proof" that White has adequate compensation!  Embarrassed The number of threads in the forum on the BDG is absurd.


  Dear Inn 2. I´m playing BDG against 3 strong opponents, yet I´m not going to lose any single game. Maybe one or two draws, one (two?) wins. Results speak more than words. You told us "draws conceded in this game will embolden BDG trolls".. 
  Let´s see it from different perspective. In "normal" openings, do white have any substantial plus after opening? I don´t think so. See database statistics, in many lines it is something like 40-40-30 (win-draw-lost) or 50-40-10 etc. Is there any difference to have a draw after 45 moves Sicilian defense or to have the same result after BDG is played? Draw is simply a draw. According to the Rajmund Emanuel´s ED hypothesis it is not a success. According to normal chess perception, it is quite normal result showing that black has defended well and was somehow able to equalise. It is the same in other openings, the main ones included. Most of the ECO lines end with +/=, but this is an advantage not enough to win a game. Some mistake or more than two dubious moves have to come, of course, when position is +/= there is higher probability that the mistake will come from the other player. After my recent experience I consider BDG to be playable in high-level correspondence chess. Overall results for BDG on this level are though disasterous, the same with Morra gambit. But I think it is simply because white players are playing it weak. I know about some 10 or more Morra gambit games played by Rajmund Emanuel against strong opponents on ICCF and CFC and guess what is the result... it is something like 9 1/2 : 1/2 !! And the only reason for this is that Morra is sound gambit but it is extremely challenging and demanding, from analytical point of view. I think it is the same with BDG. It is very difficult to play. Many people don´t realize this. It is easy to beat your opponent in line you know in 5min blitz, but to play the same line of BDG in normal time control, it is different story, esp. when your opponent is above 2200 - such players simply can defend. 
  I don´t like rubbish chess myself. Moves like 1.h4? etc. which give me an advantage or at least equality immediatelly 1..e5! I don´t see any point in playing 1.d4 c5 2.b4 etc. But on the other hand I like to experiment and to play interesting chess, therefore in rapid time control I sometimes met 1.Nf3 by g5!? recently scoring 1 win and a draw against about 2200 players. We were all out of book from move 2. But positions which arise were very interesting and difficult.
  
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #70 - 06/27/05 at 23:38:13
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I am afraid that the draws conceded in this game (and maybe Prie's?) will embolden BDG trolls everywhere else. Draws in their vocabulary seems to be equated to a win, and  further "proof" that White has adequate compensation!  Embarrassed The number of threads in the forum on the BDG is absurd.
  
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #69 - 06/27/05 at 17:29:12
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I think Black could have played a little more ambitiously than 14...e5!?.  For instance, I agree with Bonsai that Black is okay is after 14...Ne6.  There is a little more risk associated with the move, but think it may offer better winning chances.  However, I have to congratulate Bonsai on finding such a clear solution to Black's problems.  This decision is very understandable, especially when the opponent claims +/- in all lines.

So at this point it seems clear that Black has equalised after 18.O-O; however, I think Black has an endgame edge and that he can play for more with 18...Bxc5 19.dxc5 O-O-O.  At first sight, this may look like a certain draw, but I think White has a difficult defense ahead.  I think Black's more active king and better pawns weigh in his favor, though it may not be enough for a win with accurate defense from White.  Anyway, I would be happy to have a position like this for Black, and I would certainly play on from here if it were an OTB game under normal cirmcumstances.  Also, I think it is an interesting rook ending that should be analyzed.

This kind of reminds me of inequality proof in mathematics.  I think Bonsai has found a short, elegant proof that Black >= White.  All that is left is to prove strict inequality!
  

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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #68 - 06/27/05 at 16:37:34
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  Yes, you´re right. Black has very strong continuation in form of 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6!? Yet, there might be some place for white to improve but this will be a part of future development in BDG opening theory. 6..c6!? is a very tricky move, it seems to be very odd, especially followed by Be6, but it proves to be good, even enough to give equality. Do I have some suggestions for white to improve? Frankly, for the time being, no. Would I play against BDG, I would go right for this line. It is quite difficult to think that as early move as 6.Ne5 might not have been the best one, especially that after other moves (including Markovich) things seem good for white, based on my analysis. 

  Maybe, maybe there might have been improvement in form of Be2 without g4 or Be2 with g4, but... let the future decide. For the time being we can say that we have one of the main line of BDG in jeopardy (for high-level correspondence play or from "searching the truth" perspective). 

  Anyway I still hope that the match will be 2 1/2 vs 1/2 in favour of BDG and this result should give really tough reason for BDG pointing out that it is really not as bad as it is thought to be, just on the contrary...
  
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #67 - 06/27/05 at 11:18:12
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I'll have to have another look at the position after
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6 12.Bg2 Nf4 13.Be4 Bd5 14.Qf3 e5 15.Bxf4 exf4

16.Bxd5 (with 16...Qxd5 17.Qxd5 cxd5 18.0-0 with a draw offer suggested by Patrick), maybe I'll find a way of meaningfully playing on (or maybe not - I'll have to check).

A draw would of course not be fully satisfying against such a poor opening, but at least it might prove one thing (to quote Patrick himself...)
Quote:
And my claim, based on an ED theory of chess opening, is that in some openings white is able to achieve +/- advantage (as opposed to "classical" +/= advantage). From the viewpoint of the ED theory, equality is not enough, even +/= is not. I agree with Top Notch that "bust" of some opening means that black is able to equalize. I can play BDG in OTB, as it gives good chances, but playing it in high-level corresp. chess I need it to be also "sound" and "correct". Equality is not enough.


The easy equality bit is solved, but maybe one of the other games will be a win for black? Or maybe if I agree to a draw, Patrick will have the time to play Markovich in the 5...Bf5  6. Ne5 e6 line? (one of the various points at which black could have played differently, maybe even the most principled continuation at that point)

Quote:

13..Nh3 14.Qf3 +/-

What does that refer to, by the way? If you talk about my previous 13...0-0-0 14.c3 Nh3, then I don't actually see why 14.Qf3 would be particularly good - as far as I can see black could just go on developing with 14...g6.
  
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #66 - 06/27/05 at 04:55:08
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1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6 12.Bg2 Nf4 13.Be4 Bd5 14.Qf3 e5 15.Bxf4

And I offer these conditional moves 15...exf4 16.Bxd5 Qxd5 17.Qxd5 cxd5 18.0-0 with a draw offer.

And one brief comment to the 13...0-0-0. Maybe white can play as follows: 13..0-0-0 14.Rf1!? Ng6 (14..Nd5 15.Qf3 h6 16.Qa3 Kb8 17.Qb3 b6 18.c4!? with great complications e.g. 18..Nc7 19.g6) 15.Nxe6 Qxe6 16.Qe2 Kb8 17.c3 with compensation
13..Nh3 14.Qf3 +/-

  
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Lev D. Zilbermints
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #65 - 06/25/05 at 23:14:51
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Out of curiosity, I analyzed this match a bit myself. With best play, the outcome should be a draw.
  
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #64 - 06/25/05 at 13:49:50
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Yes, you have choosen the only line I have been aware of which gives an equality to black. Bd5! followed by e5! I hope I still manage to find something but for the time being my analysis ended with = endgame. In my opinion till now, my opponent played the best black´s moves.

I don't think it was quite as narrow a path for black as you claim, 14...Ng6 is not that bad, either. It's just that after 15.0-0 (15.Rf1 may look good - particularly to the computer, but it is a bit too articifical and the pressure down the f-file doesn't really give white enough, as far as I could see) 15...e5 (15...b6 weakening the queenside seems more risky, but may well be playable, too) 16.c4 is extremely complicated and white does really have sort of an attack here on the other hand black is always very close to consolidating and white could not afford to allow that without getting something in return.
Even 14...Ne6 doesn't look totally wrong, but I admit I though the position after e.g. 15.Bxd5 cxd5 16.0-0 Nd8 17.c3 Qc6 18.Nd3 e6 looked a bit too dangerous to me on the kingside, although I didn't see a knockout (e.g. 19.Ne5 Qc7 20.Bf4 Bd6 21.Qh5 0-0 22.Rf3 f6 23.g6 h6 24.Nd3 would be quite fine for black).
And do you think I absolutely had to play 13...Bd5? After all 13...0-0-0 (e.g. with ideas like 14.c3 Nh3!? - the last move on the one hand keeps white from castling and prepares 15...g6 considering the that at the moment 14...g6 would be bad, because of 15.Qa4 Kb8 16.Qb4 b6 17.Na6 Kb7 18.Qxd6 exd6 19.Bxf4) cannot be totally wrong, can it?
« Last Edit: 06/26/05 at 04:53:03 by Bonsai »  
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #63 - 06/25/05 at 12:28:08
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Yes, you have choosen the only line I have been aware of which gives an equality to black. Bd5! followed by e5! I hope I still manage to find something but for the time being my analysis ended with = endgame. In my opinion till now, my opponent played the best black´s moves.
  
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #62 - 06/25/05 at 12:05:54
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1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6 12.Bg2 Nf4 13.Be4 Bd5 14.Qf3 e5
Maybe a bit simplistic, but 14...e5 should make sure black has equality. The alternatives were of course 14...Ng6, which is by far more complicated or 14...Ne6...
  
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #61 - 06/22/05 at 06:24:08
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1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6 12.Bg2 Nf4 13.Be4 Bd5 14.Qf3

  
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #60 - 06/19/05 at 16:05:38
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To be honest, I gave little consideration to this move.  When I saw 12...g6, I came to the conclusion that Black was good and stopped.  I probably dismissed 12...Nf4 on the assumption that it gave white enough counterplay on the queenside.  But now that I am looking at this, I am starting to think that if 12...g6 is good, 12...Nf4 is great!  OK, I should probably look into the move a little more before coming to conclusions, but this move this looks killing to me!  I think that if this move is good, white's game is going downhill fast.

I wish things were quite that easy, but I think 12...Nf4 is good for ensuring that I put enough pressure on white myself. The risk of course is that I white gets too much play and is capable to escape into an even ending (or even worse to get a serious attack).

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6 12.Bg2 Nf4 13.Be4 Bd5
  
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #59 - 06/17/05 at 06:49:31
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1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6 12.Bg2 Nf4 13.Be4

Yes, indeed, 12..Nf4(!) has been the best move according to my analysis.
  
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #58 - 06/17/05 at 02:52:11
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To be honest, I gave little consideration to this move.  When I saw 12...g6, I came to the conclusion that Black was good and stopped.  I probably dismissed 12...Nf4 on the assumption that it gave white enough counterplay on the queenside.  But now that I am looking at this, I am starting to think that if 12...g6 is good, 12...Nf4 is great!  OK, I should probably look into the move a little more before coming to conclusions, but this move this looks killing to me!  I think that if this move is good, white's game is going downhill fast.
  

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