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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match (Read 50153 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #87 - 03/24/06 at 20:46:15
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After 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6, now instead of the games 8.g5 on the website http://mujweb.atlas.cz/www/rajmunde/gunde.htm Sevenviolets gives
"8.Bc4!?N Perhaps the only way how to obtain black fort...

A/ 8...Bxc4 9.Nxc4 e6 [9...h6 10.0-0 e6 11.Be3 Nbd7 12.Qf3 Nb6 13.Ne5 a6 14.Ne4 Nbd5 15.Bf2 Be7 16.c4 Nb6 17.g5 hxg5 18.Nxg5 Rf8 19.Rae1+/- ]".

Of course other variations are analyzed.  I just stopped after showing the 9...h6 subvariation because my question concerns it.  Continuing with 9...h6 10.0-0 e6 11.Be3 Nbd7 12.Qf3 Nb6 13.Ne5 I don't understand why Black would now continue with 13...a6.  Seems like Black should try the immediate 14...Nbd5 or other moves besides 13...a6.  Right now I think Schoupal was correct to go with 8.g5.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #86 - 07/05/05 at 08:17:10
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Yes, so long as we understand that the game will be played here and be open for everyone's comment -- just like Schoupal's games.  Just open a thread and post the moves as far as 5...Bf5.  Let's use bold to denote the actual game thread.  I await your post.  My actual name is Mark Morss, by the way.
  

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ArKheiN
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #85 - 07/04/05 at 17:07:49
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Hello Markovich, Im a BDG player, and I would like to take the challenge of playing CC in the Tartakower-gunderam variation: 1.d4 d5  2. e4 dxe4  3. Nc3 Nf6  4. f3 exf3  5. Nxf3 Bf5 

But I am not as experimented as Patrik Schoupal for example, but it still could be interesting for me, and even for some BDG theory, who knows?

Do you accept my challenge?
« Last Edit: 07/05/05 at 10:15:34 by ArKheiN »  
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Markovich
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #84 - 07/04/05 at 14:35:00
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That's the point. I am primarily an over-the-board, not a correspondence, player. Also, I am distrustful  of correspondence chess because of the proliferation of computers.  You never know if your opponent is using 
computers to analyze or not.

It was different in the old days.  Now it is not like that.

  As far as Markovich is concerned, okay, how about a more lengthy time control? Say, Game/ 60 minutes on ICC? Then we can post the result here.



Sorry, these days I play only CC.

I am not quite sure what difference it would make if one of us were using a computer.  This particular inquiry is about the search for BDG truth, isn't it?  Perhaps it is me personally you want to defeat?  But there are many players in this world who are stronger than I am, and it would hardly improve my opinion of the BDG to discover that you were among them.

I like Hgman's suggestion that we play here.  If you want to open a thread, I am willing to take the Black side of 1. d4 d5  2. e4 dxe4  3. Nc3 Nf6  4. f3 exf3  5. Nxf3 Bf5
  

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Lev D. Zilbermints
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #83 - 07/01/05 at 15:57:59
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That's the point. I am primarily an over-the-board, not a correspondence, player. Also, I am distrustful  of correspondence chess because of the proliferation of computers.  You never know if your opponent is using 
computers to analyze or not.

It was different in the old days.  Now it is not like that.

  As far as Markovich is concerned, okay, how about a more lengthy time control? Say, Game/ 60 minutes on ICC? Then we can post the result here.

  
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HgMan
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #82 - 07/01/05 at 08:56:13
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Ha, ha!  I think the BDG is actually a rather good system to play at speed.

I decline your offer, but if you would like to play a game of correspondence chess, my handle on net-chess is cornstalk.  Challenge me at 30+2 (30 days plus a 2-day "push"), and I'll be happy to accept.


As an interested outsider in the three games Patrik is playing here--and he's played both admirably and graciously--I get the impression that Lev has missed the point of these games.  Patrik was playing not for ego, but rather to take advantage of a golden opportunity to advance BDG theory.  Markovich's comments through the games have been valuable, and I don't doubt that Lev has numerous good ideas in these lines.  So why take the game to ICC, when you have a perfectly good forum here and the opportunity to contribute to an already growing body of BDG knowledge.  The time controls should be irrelevant; play here to develop the line...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Markovich
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #81 - 07/01/05 at 07:11:28
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Markovich, why don't you play me on the Internet Chess Club?
I take White, you take Black, and the opening is BDG. Let's see how good you are.  Interested?  Say, Game/ 5 minutes?


Ha, ha!  I think the BDG is actually a rather good system to play at speed.

I decline your offer, but if you would like to play a game of correspondence chess, my handle on net-chess is cornstalk.  Challenge me at 30+2 (30 days plus a 2-day "push"), and I'll be happy to accept.
  

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Sevenviolets
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #80 - 06/30/05 at 17:21:38
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I'll accept the draw offer, there's really nothing much to do about it. 
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6 12.Bg2 Nf4 13.Be4 Bd5 14.Qf3 e5 15.Bxf4 exf4 16.Bxd5 Qxd5 17.Qxd5 cxd5 18.0-0 ˝-˝

Maybe we'll see the Patrick against Markovich match? Or do you prefer 6.Bc4 now, too, Patrick? I suppose the move makes sense if white is hoping for that Alchemy variation - but even that cannot be that good for white, e.g. that so-called sun variation is highly suspicious to me, I wouldn't be surprised at all if black could easily fend off all threats there with a few precise moves. 

However I think that if white is angling for a transposition with 6.Bc4, I don't really see that black ought to play c6, at all. In fact after
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Bc4 e6 7.0-0 Be7 (Maybe one could even develop the bishop more actively? But 7...Be7 is definitely a good solid move.) 8.Ng5!? 0-0 I have the feeling (and the computer seems to agree) that black should be okay. After 9.d5 I'd rather suggest 9...exd5 the idea being that one lets white take with the knight on d5 (i.e. either 10.Nxd5 or 10.Bxd5 Nxd5 11.Nxd5) and then plays Bg6 obtaining a super-safe position. How good can white's compensation possibly be in that position? No real attacking ideas available, nothing like a serious space advantage and no clearly better development.


Dear friend,
  thank you very much for the game and for the opportunity to play with you. It has been honour for me. You were strong opponent and I´m happy you played so well. I don´t know what things might have happened if you choose some other line to play (there were a lot of playable possibilities), but there was really just one line which I was aware of and where I have had simply nothing. And you chose right this line! I think I might have had enough compensation in other lines (at least I believe so). On the other hand it is very probable that they are some other draw-lines for black. 
For me the move 5..Bf5 6.Ne5 c6!=, for the time being, deserves an exclamation mark because it leads to equality.

  After I will finish my other two games I will decide about one more game (with Markovich). To give anti-BDGeers one more chance to finally rest the opening to peace Smiley
  
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guidedbyvoices
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #79 - 06/30/05 at 16:39:05
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What do five minute games resolve?  What's been fascinating about Patrik's three games here is the opportunity to get under the skin of the opening.  Play here and get the analysis out in the open...


well said HGman, as a neutral but nonetheless interested spectator, it appears to me that the BDG is atm holding its own. its early days yet but despite the slating it got from some vociferous critics patrik doesnt seem to be doing too badly overall atm
  
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Bonsai
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #78 - 06/30/05 at 16:33:44
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I'll accept the draw offer, there's really nothing much to do about it. 
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6 12.Bg2 Nf4 13.Be4 Bd5 14.Qf3 e5 15.Bxf4 exf4 16.Bxd5 Qxd5 17.Qxd5 cxd5 18.0-0 ˝-˝

Maybe we'll see the Patrick against Markovich match? Or do you prefer 6.Bc4 now, too, Patrick? I suppose the move makes sense if white is hoping for that Alchemy variation - but even that cannot be that good for white, e.g. that so-called sun variation is highly suspicious to me, I wouldn't be surprised at all if black could easily fend off all threats there with a few precise moves. 

However I think that if white is angling for a transposition with 6.Bc4, I don't really see that black ought to play c6, at all. In fact after
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Bc4 e6 7.0-0 Be7 (Maybe one could even develop the bishop more actively? But 7...Be7 is definitely a good solid move.) 8.Ng5!? 0-0 I have the feeling (and the computer seems to agree) that black should be okay. After 9.d5 I'd rather suggest 9...exd5 the idea being that one lets white take with the knight on d5 (i.e. either 10.Nxd5 or 10.Bxd5 Nxd5 11.Nxd5) and then plays Bg6 obtaining a super-safe position. How good can white's compensation possibly be in that position? No real attacking ideas available, nothing like a serious space advantage and no clearly better development.
  
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[Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #77 - 06/30/05 at 16:03:03
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I think that in the game Schoupal vers. Bonsai both players played (after 6.move) strongly, without any mistakes. The draw result of the game is due to the fact that 6.Ne5 isn´t the best continuation. Nowadays I focus more on, seemingly more perspective, 6.Bc4. I will present here just some brief ideas about the line, I´m going to present more concrete and deep analysis on the web (http://www.mujweb.cz/www/rajmunde/IntroEN2.htm). But for the time being I´m going on holiday.

1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf5 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 Gunderam var. 6.Bc4!?  Shocked
If white´s aim is to get +/- advantage, it seems we need to go this way. It is played less often than 6.Ne5. It is like in Bogoljubow Variation (5..g6) in which instead of traditional Studier Attack (6.Bc4) now I consider better Long Bogo (6.Bf4). Here traditional 6.Ne5?! c6 7.g4 Be6?! seems to to about equal see Schoupal : Bonsai.
6...e6
 
[6...Nc6 7.Bb5 Bd7 (7...e6 8.Ne5 Bb4 9.Nxc6 Bxc3+ 10.bxc3 Qd5 11.Nxa7+ c6 12.Nxc6 Qxb5 13.Ne5 Ne4 14.g4 Bg6 15.Qf3 Nd6 16.Nxg6 hxg6 17.Bf4 Nc8 18.a4 Qa6 (18...Qc4 19.Kd2+/-) 19.Rb1 Nb6 20.c4+/-) 8.0-0 e6 9.Bg5 Be7 10.d5 Nb4 11.dxe6 fxe6 12.Bc4 c6 (12...0-0 13.Qe2 Kh8 14.Rad1 c6 15.Bxe6 Qb6+ 16.Kh1 Bxe6 17.Qxe6 Rae8 18.Ne5 Bd8 19.Bxf6+/-) 13.Bxf6 Bxf6 14.Ne5 Nd5 15.Qh5+ g6 16.Nxg6 Bd4+ 17.Kh1 hxg6 18.Qxg6+ Ke7 19.Rf7+ Kd6 20.Qg3+ e5 21.Ne4+ Kc7 22.Bxd5 Rf8 23.Raf1+/-;  
6...g6 7.Ne5 e6 8.Bg5 Be7 9.g4 Nfd7 10.Bf4 Bh4+ 11.Kf1+/-; 
6...c6 7.0-0 e6 8.Ng5! see Alchemy var.!; 
6...Nbd7 7.Bg5 h6 (7...e6 8.Qe2 Be7 9.d5 Nxd5 10.Bxd5 Bxg5 11.Bxb7 Rb8 12.Bc6 Rxb2 13.Rd1 0-0 14.Rxd7 Qf6 15.Ne4 Bxe4 16.Bxe4 Qc3+ 17.Kf2 Qc5+ 18.Kg3 Be7 19.h4 Rxa2 20.Bd3 g6 21.Kh3 Ra4 22.g3 Rd8 23.Rxd8+ Bxd8 24.Ne5 Kg7 25.Re1 Rd4 26.Bb5+-) 8.Bxf6 Nxf6 9.Qe2 c6 10.Ne5 e6 11.Rf1!+/- (11.0-0-0 Qc7!?) ]  

7.0-0 c6  
[7...Be7 8.Ng5!?N  Shocked0-0 (8...Bxc2 9.Nxf7 Kxf7 10.Qe2 Ke8 11.Qxe6 Rf8 12.Bf4 Qxd4+ 13.Kh1 Qd7 14.Qe2 Bg6 15.Nb5 Bh5 16.Qe5 Na6 17.Bg5 Bg4 18.Rf4 Rf7 19.Re1 Kf8 20.Qe4! Bb4 21.Bxf6 gxf6 22.Bxf7 Bxe1 23.Bb3 f5 24.Qxe1 Re8 25.Qc3 Qg7 26.Nd4 Qe5 27.Qc4+/-) 9.d5 Nxd5 10.Nxd5 Bxg5 11.Bxg5 Qxg5 12.Nxc7 Bg6 13.Nxe6+/-;  
7...Bb4 8.Bg5 h6 (8...0-0 9.Ne5!?) 9.Bxf6 Qxf6 10.Ne5 0-0 11.g4 Qg5 12.Qc1 Qh4 13.Qe3 Bg6 14.h3+/-]  
8.Ng5! see Alchemy var.
« Last Edit: 07/01/05 at 06:51:46 by Rajmund_Emanuel »  
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HgMan
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #76 - 06/30/05 at 15:18:02
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What do five minute games resolve?  What's been fascinating about Patrik's three games here is the opportunity to get under the skin of the opening.  Play here and get the analysis out in the open...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Lev D. Zilbermints
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #75 - 06/30/05 at 13:42:23
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Markovich, why don't you play me on the Internet Chess Club?
I take White, you take Black, and the opening is BDG. Let's see how good you are.  Interested?  Say, Game/ 5 minutes?
  
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Markovich
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #74 - 06/30/05 at 09:48:53
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  Dear Inn 2. I´m playing BDG against 3 strong opponents, yet I´m not going to lose any single game.


When this game is over, I hope you will play me here.  I certainly do not consider the BDG to be a viable weapon in correspondence chess, or in any other form of chess with relatively long time limits.  From my perspective Black is =+ in more than one of his defenses.  I only wish I faced this opening more often.  Therefore I very much look forward to a clash between our respective ideas.
  

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Sevenviolets
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Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #73 - 06/30/05 at 07:08:30
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Lev,
   no, I wrote "I don´t like rubbish chess myself. Moves like 1.h4? etc. which give me an advantage or at least equality immediatelly 1..e5! I don´t see any point in playing 1.d4 c5 2.b4 etc." I have meant two different things; one "rubbish chess" like 1.h4? and the other, for me pointless move like 1.d4 c5 2.b4?! 2.b4?! is not "rubbish chess like" but on the other hand when one is white he should try to play the best moves. 2.b4?! seems like a kind of pseudo-gambit. Anyway, I like this idea Smiley
  
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