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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match (Read 43156 times)
Sevenviolets
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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #24 - 06/13/05 at 14:36:44
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1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nge2 Nc6 5.d5 Nce7 6.Ng3 Nf6 7.Bc4 Bg4 8.f3 exf3 9.gxf3 Bh3 10.Bg5 Qd6 11.Qe2 a6 12.0-0-0

Eric wrote: "Markovich, I just want a relevant game against a specialist on 4...Bb4 because I have realized it was the only move, here, in the spirit of the Lemberger."

You might be right. Maybe I will surprise you and send some analysis proving equality after tommorow. But of course I hope someone can improve on it.
  
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GMEricPrie
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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #23 - 06/12/05 at 01:59:31
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"Yet, there is a line after 10.Bg5! which is still unclear for me. It is 10..Ng6!"
Is-it ? Then I'd rather play it instead of 10...Qd6...
Just kidding! I did not like 11.Nh5 and after 11.Qe2 I do play 11...a6.

Patrik, you do not have to complain on your hours of analysis consecutive to such a "must not work-against the rules of chess" move like 1.d4 d5 2.e4.
It is your thing, you deliberately have choosen it.
As for me, in 15 years of active professional chess, I met it only twice including one in a rapid tournament.
My involvement into the Lemberger is only 'ideal' and for the good of this section.

It is useless to launch a second thread on 4...Bb4. We can continue here.
By the way, this is what we had with teyko. 2 different discussions on the same Shneider's thread. 
When the BDG represents less than 5% of the theorical up to date material of this section, it occupies more than 50% of the space on this forum!! 

Markovich, I just want a relevant game against a specialist on 4...Bb4 because I have realized it was the only move, here, in the spirit of the Lemberger.
If, in that purpose, I have to resign this game then I will without problem.
Do not worry, I shall resign soon anyway, when Patrik's "winning attack" breaks through Smiley 
 
  
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Sevenviolets
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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #22 - 06/11/05 at 10:44:51
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Well, maybe I was a bit too rush in my words. I see your point. O.K. I accept your 4..Bb4 challenge, if you want to play, please create new thread. But I also want to continue in our game, if it is possible. 

1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nge2 Nc6 5.d5 Nce7 6.Ng3 Nf6 7.Bc4 Bg4 8.f3 exf3 9.gxf3 Bh3 10.Bg5 Qd6 11.Qe2 a6

Is this variation the one you wanted to play? White is on move.

The other game 1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nge2 Bb4 and white will be on move. More in your new forum thread. I will send my reply about Friday, I need to decide about the ED continuation, 5th move is the most important move in the game.
  
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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #21 - 06/10/05 at 09:11:47
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Eric wrote: "I am not here to waste time on correspondence chess I just want to find a game that would support I disagreeessment that Black can comfortably equalize by giving back the pawn in the Lemberger and fulfill my duty for chesspublishing."

  Yes, it might be true. But I waste my time in this way too. Before I played 8.f3 I have spent several hours (I guess some 7 or more) trying to find an advantage against several possibilities after 8.f3 exf3 9.gxf3 Bh3 10.Bg5! Not just one hour of analysis or Fritz in depth 15. I have been successfull in doing so. Yet, there is a line after 10.Bg5! which is still unclear for me. It is 10..Ng6! 
   
  I do not like (as I wrote here several times) an approach of black players who mention one line and immediately when you work out the analysis proving white´s advantage they start to yell about some other line and so on and so forth. It is an endless cycle. 
   
  You have to realize that analysis for white are very difficult and time demanding. I have never played against 4..Bb4!? So I have no analysis in hand and to find an advantage would take some time. 
  I see you want to find a way to equalise, but you can (in the way you´re doing it) find it even without helping "by myself". I do not want to be a clown or an opponent on whom you can try all your "one second" ideas (after Bb4!? it might have been exd4 and Bg4 etc.) I want to play against strong players who deserve my attention and my time. Not against someone who ran Fritz for 15 minutes finding 7..Bg4 and then played it. And after one hour more of analysis simply rejected the whole line resigning the game. 
   
  Till now, I haven´t found any advantage in 10.Bg5 Ng6! line. But to go right this way one needs to give to the position more than one hour of analysis with a chessboard. This sounds ridiculous for me.   
   
Eric wrote: "but your refusal to play against 4...Bb4 is already the sign that I touched the sensitive point of 4.Nge2!" 

  No, you don´t touch any sensitive point. But your attitude to our first game might be also transposed to the second one. And I don´t want to face the same situation that after many hours of analysis I will play some two or three moves and you simply will say "you have won" followed by "I need to prove = for my article, it is my job, I want to try 4..exd4". I have not enough time for such "childish plays" or so-called "games". That is my most important point. 
 
  I´m sorry if I offend you somehow but that´s the way I feel it.
  Or do you think you can find the truth (you´re talking about) after one hour of analysis? I don´t.
  
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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #20 - 06/10/05 at 07:34:33
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I see your point Patrik but you also have to consider mine.

I am not here to waste time on correspondence chess I just want to find a game that would support my assessment that Black can comfortably equalize by giving back the pawn in the Lemberger and fulfill my duty for chesspublishing.
This was the case with teyko in the Shneiders.
It is another concept of online analysis where you can take moves back at any moment.
These aborted attempts will feed the published game eventually.
I am sorry, but I am not interested in anything else then finding out the so-called truth on this forum. 

When launching this thread I decided to play 7...Bg4 after 15' of Fritz aided thought,  yesterday I analysed for more than 1 hour.
For the first time in 4 years you even forced me to take a proper chess board ! and that is already a great victory for the BDG Smiley 
Defending against the attack with a good pawn in the pocket does not conform at all with the spirit of the Lemberger.
Indeed why not accepting the pawn and enter complications by "playing the most aggressive and principled continuations" like the promising 5...Bf5 as said X and many others before him ?
 
I would rather defend a practical approach with a didactic procedure turned towards the tournament player.

If you want to prove White has a winning attack after 10...Qd6 11.Qe2 a6 (or 12.Qd3 a6  or  12.Bb5+ Bd7) I wish you good luck and will happily follow ( and correct if necessary Smiley) your analysis posted here but your refusal to play against 4...Bb4 is already the sign that I touched the sensitive point of 4.Nge2! Smiley


I am sure that I am not the only one who is extremely grateful for your willinginess to spend time here and share your ideas.   

However, it was made explicit that this was to be a game, not an analytical session.  So, with the greatest respect, if you don't want to play on, you should say, "I resign."
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #19 - 06/10/05 at 05:29:09
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The solution is simple and clear: BDG - anti BDG 1-0 and GM Prié is willing to take up another game!
Patrik, you should be proud.
  

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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #18 - 06/10/05 at 02:39:26
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"I disagree" ??? = the (assessment)
  
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GMEricPrie
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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #17 - 06/10/05 at 02:35:59
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I see your point Patrik but you also have to consider mine.

I am not here to waste time on correspondence chess I just want to find a game that would support my assessment that Black can comfortably equalize by giving back the pawn in the Lemberger and fulfill my duty for chesspublishing.
This was the case with teyko in the Shneiders.
It is another concept of online analysis where you can take moves back at any moment.
These aborted attempts will feed the published game eventually.
I am sorry, but I am not interested in anything else then finding out the so-called truth on this forum. 

When launching this thread I decided to play 7...Bg4 after 15' of Fritz aided thought,  yesterday I analysed for more than 1 hour.
For the first time in 4 years you even forced me to take a proper chess board ! and that is already a great victory for the BDG Smiley 
Defending against the attack with a good pawn in the pocket does not conform at all with the spirit of the Lemberger.
Indeed why not accepting the pawn and enter complications by "playing the most aggressive and principled continuations" like the promising 5...Bf5 as said X and many others before him ?
 
I would rather defend a practical approach with a didactic procedure turned towards the tournament player.

If you want to prove White has a winning attack after 10...Qd6 11.Qe2 a6 (or 12.Qd3 a6  or  12.Bb5+ Bd7) I wish you good luck and will happily follow ( and correct if necessary Smiley) your analysis posted here but your refusal to play against 4...Bb4 is already the sign that I touched the sensitive point of 4.Nge2! Smiley
  
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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #16 - 06/09/05 at 20:22:04
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I think Eric Prie is trying to find an easy to learn equalizer for Black against BDG.  However, I think it is easier to learn (and probably easier to play!) a promising accepted line like 5...Bf5 in the BDG. From analyzing a few lines in the BDG, I've learned that often the best policy is to play the most aggressive and principled continuations.  Sometimes you create more complications by attempting to dodge complications!
  

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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #15 - 06/09/05 at 19:42:41
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I have to disagree with Eric Prié. The position shows an excellent situation when to accept a pawn (though not clear).
White cant really castle, a pawn more and I dont see anything to go for as white. I see his point though, he wants a variation where you dont accept the pawn (any) and get good play as black. 
Botwinnik already knew that 2..e6 or 2..c6 are the refutations of the BDG nonsense Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #14 - 06/09/05 at 13:10:30
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All right Patrik, after  8.f3 exf3 9.gxf3 Bh3 10.Bg5 Qd6
Black has to accept the pawn and fight against the opposing initiative.
This not in the spirit of the Lemberger, you have won Smiley 

If you want we can continue this game in parallel but I had rather play 4...Bb4 in a second game, more relevant for what I am trying to prove for the section, if you do not mind.


  Well, wait a moment, this is very strange behaviour. Let´s imagine you will play an opponent and after you play your first move, the opponent will resign arguing with the statement like this above... Will you consider it as a correct treatment of yourself? I don´t. Yes, I agree that 9..Bh3 is the best move and I agree that 10.Bg5! is the best move to counter Bh3. And finally I think I can prove a win after 10..Qd6?! and that it is more than "fight against the opposing initiative". White has an attack, winning one. 
  You have wanted to prove your claim 4..Nc6! Does it mean you reject the whole line, changing your opinion to 4..Nc6?! ? I prefer to continue with our game as I consider such way of finishing it unfair. Black is on move.
  
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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #13 - 06/09/05 at 12:20:49
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All right Patrik, after  8.f3 exf3 9.gxf3 Bh3 10.Bg5 Qd6
Black has to accept the pawn and fight against the opposing initiative.
This not in the spirit of the Lemberger, you have won Smiley 

If you want we can continue this game in parallel but I had rather play 4...Bb4 in a second game, more relevant for what I am trying to prove for the section, if you do not mind.
  
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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #12 - 06/08/05 at 08:37:40
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1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nge2 Nc6 5.d5 Nce7 6.Ng3 Nf6 7.Bc4 Bg4 8.f3

I play 8.f3.

Yes, there is the analysis but considering our 8.f3 line, there is just one short variation. Though, now we have equal chances Smiley

Just for fun, you might have a look at my short analytical coverage of 8.Qd2?! line. Draw would be the most probable result and that´s of course of no interest for me.

8.Qd2 c6?! (I consider 8...Ng6! to be the strongest, aiming for Be7, 0-0 or even 8...Qd6!? can be tried with a different plan) 9.h3! cxd5 (9...Bd7 10.dxc6 Bxc6 (10...Nxc6!?) 11.Qe2 Ng6 12.0–0 Be7 13.Rd1+/=) 10.Nxd5 Nexd5 

(10...Nfxd5 11.hxg4 e3 (11...a6 12.Nxe4 Qd7 13.0–0 Rd8 14.Qe2 Qc6 15.Rd1 Rd7 16.Bb3 Ng6 17.Bg5 Ngf4 18.Qf3+/-) 12.fxe3 Nb6 13.Bb3 Qxd2+ (13...Ned5 14.0–0 Qd7 15.a4 a5 16.Qf2+/-) 14.Bxd2 Nc6 15.Rf1+/-) 

11.hxg4 Bc5 
a) 11...Bb4 12.c3 e3 13.fxe3 Bc5 14.g5+/-; 
b) 11...Qd7! 12.g5 (12.Qe2 0–0–0 counterplay or maybe 12.Nxe4 Nxe4 13.Qxd5 Bb4+ 14.c3 Qxd5 15.Bxd5 Nxc3 16.Bxb7 Nb5+ 17.Kf1 and white has a pair of bishop) 
12...e3 13.fxe3 Qg4 14.Bb5+ Nd7 15.0–0 N5b6 16.Nf5 0–0–0 17.a4 unclear; 

12.g5 e3 13.fxe3 Bxe3 14.Qd3 Bxc1 15.gxf6 Qa5+ 16.Kd1+/-

But of course this is not a type of position (I mean 8..Ng6!) I want to play when choosing BDG, I want more attacking possibilities therefore I will choose 8.f3!
  
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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #11 - 06/08/05 at 05:27:28
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Here is a link to the analysis on this line:

http://www.mujweb.cz/www/rajmunde/horizon.htm

(Patrik supplied a link to me in a separate thread.)
  

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Re: Schoupal - Prié, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #10 - 06/08/05 at 04:55:05
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Frankly, I was expecting 8.f3 but did not have a clue analysis had been ever published on this sub...sub line !

In order to equalize the chances  Smiley may I have the address of the site ?
  
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