TopNotch

Tromp with Bh4 certainly NOT where its at. Knew tromp pretty well some 15 years back when semi-active.  Bh4 was duff then iirc, remains so imho.

Even h4 better

Basically Bf4 or yer main-lining it.

Dont see that your 5...Nf6 is good for black. My simpleton evaluation - white got more bits out.

Double pawn sac - yes appears to have been worked out. 

Where to go...that is more study time than I have at the mo alas ...let Palliser work thru that....

TopNotch wrote on 06/02/07 at 17:31:48:

Hi guys, 
I see from your earlier post that Marting recommends 

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3

What does he recommend after this - is it Wells' Bxe4 lines, or something else?

I don't have the DVD yet, but I am confident that the game in question is:

Chernysov(2531)-Grischuk(2724), Russian Club Ch.'s, Dagomys, 2005

You can check it out on   http://www.e3e5.com/petersburg/competitions/article.html?284 ;


Geof_Strayer provided the following information in another thread: 

Moves were as follows, with some limited paraphrasing of IM Barsky's comments: 
 
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.f3 Qa5+ 5.c3 Nf6 6.d5 Qb6 7.e4!? Qxb2 8.Nd2 Qxc3 9.Bc7! TN (Black's Q is now somewhat inconvenienced as it can no longer retreat via a5) g6 10.Rc1 Qe3+ 11.Ne2 Na6 12.Nc4 Qh6 13.Bf4 Qg7 14.Qa4! (preventing ...d6 and further development by Black) g5 15.Be5 g4 16.f4 Qg6 17.Ng3 Rg8 18.Ne3 Nb4 (Black decides to sacrifice a piece to complete development) 19.a3 Nc6 20.dxc6 dxc6 21.Be2 Nd7 22.0-0 (Fritz likes 22.Bc7!? once again) Nxe5 23.fxe5 Bh6 24.Qb3 Be6 25.Qc3 b6 26.Rcd1 Bxe3+ 27.Qxe3 Qg5 28.Qc3! (avoiding Q exchange due to Black's vulnerable K position) Rd8 29.Nf5 h5 30.a4 (30.Bc4!? Rg6 31.Rxd8+ Kxd8 32.Rd1+ Kc7 33.Qd3 +- may be stronger) h4 31.a5 Rxd1 32.Rxd1 Bxf5 33.Qd3! Kf8 34.exf5 Qf4 35.Qd8+ Kg7 36.Qxe7 Qxf5 37.Qxh4 Re8 38.Rf1 Qxe5 39.Qxg4+ Kf8 40.Bc4 Re7 (despite a tough defense by Black, he is still lost) 41.Rf4! Qe1+ 42.Bf1 Qe5 43.g3 Re6 44.Qh4 b5 45.Qd8+ Kg7 46.Qd7 Rf6 47.Rg4+ Kh6 48.Qd2+ Kh7 49.Bd3+ Kh8 50.Re4 Qd5 51.Qc3! (the pin is decisive) Qd6 52.Rf4 Kg7 53.Kf2 c4 54.Be4 c5 55.Ke3 Qd4+ 56.Qxd4 cxd4+ 57.Kxd4 Ra6 58.Bd5 f6 59.Rg4+ Kh8 60.Kc5 Rxa5 61.Kb4 Ra1 62.Kxb5 c3 63.Rc4 Rc1 64.Kb4 Rc2 65.h4 a5+ 66.Kb3 1-0 

MNb,

Unfortunately, I can't call up the games separately from the video (may just be my stupidity) but I listened again and AM definitely says Chernyshov-Grischuk Reggio Emilia 2005.

I've looked on chessgames.com and chesslive.de and can't find this game either!!  According to TWIC, the last Reggio Emilia tournament was at the end of Dec 2004 through early Jan 2005 and I can't find a mention of Grischuk.  I'd be surprised if he did play then as it would be very close to Corus 2005 starting.

On chessgames.com, Chernyshov has played the Tromp a few times but I've checked all the A45 games for 2004 and 2005 and can't find this one.  I've pasted the game score below - hopefully it's pgn-like so that you can copy into your database.  Apparently, it's the 9.Bc7 that is new.

Perhaps Andrew could let us know where to find the game?  Maybe there was another tournament held in Reggio Emilia but not called that?  I've checked the Olympiad (Spain) and the EU Club Championship (Grischuk played for NAO) but no luck.

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Game Three 2..Ne4"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "79"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 Ne4 3. Bf4 c5 4. f3 Qa5+ 5. c3 Nf6 6. d5 Qb6 7. e4 Qxb2 8. Nd2
Qxc3 9. Bc7 g6 10. Rc1 Qe3+ 11. Ne2 Na6 12. Nc4 Qh6 13. Bf4 Qg7 14. Qa4 g5 15.
Be5 g4 16. f4 Qg6 17. Ng3 Rg8 18. Ne3 Nb4 19. a3 Nc6 20. dxc6 dxc6 21. Be2 Nd7
22. O-O Nxe5 23. fxe5 Bh6 24. Qb3 Be6 25. Qc3 b6 26. Rcd1 Bxe3+ 27. Qxe3 Qg5
28. Qc3 Rd8 29. Nf5 h5 30. a4 h4 31. a5 Rxd1 32. Rxd1 Bxf5 33. Qd3 Kf8 34. exf5
Qf4 35. Qd8+ Kg7 36. Qxe7 Qxf5 37. Qxh4 Re8 38. Rf1 Qxe5 39. Qxg4+ Kf8 40. Bc4
*


Darth: Against 2...c5, the Bxf6 repertoire seems to be similar to Chapter 6 in Wells' book and games 41-43 in Davies' book (although again I haven't had time to watch in detail and compare).  Personally, I'll probably stick with the Vaganian gambit as I like the positions better and at my level, not many people will try ...e5.

I'm still unclear as to the idea of a BadBishop video on the Tromp; there's nothing on their website.  Where did you hear about this?

As I am quite dissatisfied with both 7.b3 and 7.Bc1, I will take a look at 7.e4. But I can't find that Grisjuk game!? There are four other games with 7.e4 in my database.
Faraday, could you check this?

It's funny that Martin would have material advocating the Tromp, since I've read a couple of articles by him discussing anti-tromp systems.  One of them, advocating 2...e6 3...h6 and an early d5 seemed to be quite reasonable for Black.  I wonder what he suggests there, and how it squares with his other analysis:

http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_bits_pieces/091203_trashing_tromp.html

He also mentioned the e6/Be6 idea, somewhere else, but for some reason that didn't strike me as terribly effective.

I heard that Andrew Martin is coming out with a DVD from bad bishop on the tromp. Anyone hear about what lines he is covering?