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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE (Read 170120 times)
MNb
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #157 - 08/16/05 at 16:02:59
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"Diemer credit for popularizing the BDG and beating masters with it!"
Yeah, Diemer did not even invent it: Duras 1912 and Richter 1932. Which masters did Diemer beat? I only could find Erno Gereben.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #156 - 08/16/05 at 12:13:13
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Why must the BDG be correct? I think it's not totally correct, but it is a lot of fun!
It's a very good practical opening till players with +/- 2400. If your opponent is stronger you will have a bad day.... 
For young players it's a very good opening to train tactics.

The only thing i hate is that Diemer was a nazi and a clown. So i think Blackmar gambit is a better name


Edwin,  please understand that Diemer deserves credit for revitalizing the old Blackmar Gambit. Dieer's political views are not the issue here, his chess skills are.

BLACKMAR GAMBIT goes 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 f3?! and is dubious. After 3...e5! White is in trouble.

BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT goes 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 Nc3! Nf6 4 f3!. Now 4...e5 no longer works, as after 5 de5! Qd1 6 Kd1 Nd7 7 Nd5 Kd8 8 Bg5+ f6  9 ef6 gf6 10 Nxf6
Be7 11 Nxe4 White is up two (2) pawns.

Political correctness can sometimes be a royal pain in the ass. Give Diemer credit for popularizing the BDG and beating masters with it!


  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #155 - 08/16/05 at 03:00:09
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Why must the BDG be correct? I think it's not totally correct, but it is a lot of fun!
It's a very good practical opening till players with +/- 2400. If your opponent is stronger you will have a bad day.... 
For young players it's a very good opening to train tactics.

The only thing i hate is that Diemer was a nazi and a clown. So i think Blackmar gambit is a better name
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #154 - 08/11/05 at 09:00:32
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For those interested, I have already published 2 articles on the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense to the BDG. You can find it in Unorthodox Openings Newsletter #10 and #12
(UON) published by Davide Rozzoni of Italy.

As for the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit (WRG), I believe Thomas Winckelmann published a few books in German on the opening.  You have to know the theory, though. However, once you do know the theory, it is much easier to play. But hey, that is true about any opening.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #153 - 08/09/05 at 07:23:15
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This is the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit. I do not know, if it is still there, but Winckelmann had a website on this. 6.f3 exf3?! gives White great attacking chances, but c5! is close to a forced win, based on the material I got from that website. 6.f3 c5 7.Be2 is not very impressive. I have tried 6.Be3 in two corr games and won both, but I do not trust it either.


Yes, and 6...e5 is also a strong move.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #152 - 08/09/05 at 05:33:45
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After 5..c5 I think 6.Be3 is the mosty played, and even the more logical. But I have seen that BDG  expert on CC play: Peter Leisebein played 6.Dd2 followed by a Bb2 and c4 at one moment, and I think he won theses games.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #151 - 08/09/05 at 00:27:15
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This is the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit. I do not know, if it is still there, but Winckelmann had a website on this. 6.f3 exf3?! gives White great attacking chances, but c5! is close to a forced win, based on the material I got from that website. 6.f3 c5 7.Be2 is not very impressive. I have tried 6.Be3 in two corr games and won both, but I do not trust it either.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #150 - 08/08/05 at 06:02:43
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There is an interesting BDG-French Winawer hybrid : In the BDG-style move order : 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 e6 4.f3 Bb4, and then 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3
In the standard French move order : 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3!? Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 dxe4 6.f3!?(Qg4 is eventually better with this move order) Ok this is the starting position I wanted to show, somes of you, or BDG detracters might think that this BDG gambit style in the winawer is bad, but I found a lot of games at master level with it. I just will post somes of them to show that even a MI or GM used to play it against another master. If Black take on f3 now, after 7.Nf3 we reach an Euwe defense where generally this is bad to exchange on c3 with the defensive bishop. 6..c5 ,6..e5 or 6..Nf6 have been played also.

3 2400+ rated games

[Event "GER telephone corr"]
[Site "Germany"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Winckelmann,Thomas"]
[Black "Gutman,Lev"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C15"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 dxe4 6.f3 exf3 7.Nxf3 Nf6 8.Bd3 0-0 
9.0-0 c5 10.Bg5 h6 11.Qe1 Nbd7 12.Qh4 c4 13.Bxc4 hxg5 14.Nxg5 Qc7 15.Bd3 Rd8 16.Bh7+ Kf8 
17.Bg6 Ke7 18.Nxf7 Rf8 19.Ng5 e5 20.dxe5 Nxe5 21.Rae1  1-0

[Event "GER telephone corr"]
[Site "Germany"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Winckelmann,Thomas"]
[Black "Gutman,Lev"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C15"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 dxe4 6.f3 exf3 7.Nxf3 Nf6 8.Bd3 0-0 
9.0-0 c5 10.Bg5 h6 11.Qe1 Nbd7 12.Qh4 c4 13.Bxc4 hxg5 14.Nxg5 Qa5 15.Rf3 Re8 16.Rh3 Kf8 
17.Qh8+ Ke7 18.Qxg7  1-0

[Event "KS Sommerskak op"]
[Site "Copenhagen"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Hector,Jonny"]
[Black "Brinck Claussen,Bjorn"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "C15"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 dxe4 6.f3 c5 7.Be2 Nc6 8.fxe4 cxd4 
9.Nf3 dxc3 10.Bd3 e5 11.0-0 Nge7 12.Qe1 0-0 13.Qxc3 Ng6 14.Bc4 Be6 15.Bxe6 fxe6 16.Be3 Rc8 
17.Qb3 Qe7 18.Ng5 Na5 19.Qa4 b6 20.Rxf8+ Nxf8 21.Rf1 h6 22.Nf7 Ng6 23.Qb5 Nc4 24.Bxh6 gxh6 
25.Nxh6+ Kh8 26.Rf7 Qg5 27.Qd7 Qe3+ 28.Rf2 Rf8 29.Nf7+ Rxf7 30.Qxf7 Nf4 31.Qf6+ Kh7 32.Qe7+ Kg6 
33.Qe8+ Kg7 34.Qe7+  1/2
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #149 - 08/07/05 at 02:21:27
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Teyko, you have to understand, that of all the BDGs I have played almost none have been with the Bd3 c5 line that Gallagher mentions. That is first.  

Secondly, although I play chess a lot, none of the titled players (IMs and GMs) have gone for an Euwe Defense with either 7...Nc6 or  6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 c5 . Geez, man, it is easier for you to say, let's see Gallagher's line!  What can I do if my opponents do not oblige?  Grin

You want to know what defenses I get? OK, I will list them.

1. Teichmann Defense, 5...Bg4

2. Vienna Defense, 4...Bf5

3. Langeheinecke Defense, 4...e3

4. Bogoljubow  Defense,  5...g6

I do not get that many Euwe Defense games.  The lines I get go 5...e6  6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 00 8 Qe1 Nbd7  or  7...h6 8 Bd2

You complain about not getting Gallagher's line? Why don't you start a new thread where  we can discuss it?

Ciao.


Lev,

Let me say that when I read Purser's BDG Keybook II your analysis really peaked my interest in the variation, and it is what I myself adopt, however I don't think that blitz games are the most legitimate form of proof for this opening. We are dealing with I.M and Grandmaster's checking this analysis we have to work harder and be more rigorous in our perceptions and our lines. It is just the way it is. 

When I have played against Albert Chow, Alexi Stamnov and N.M William Aramil I have met some interesting openings.

I played against the:
1. Euwe with c5
2. the langeincke
3.Stamnov played the Lemberger and I drew.
4. And a lot of the experts at my club play the Zeigler and Bogo.

I think that your claims are legitimate about the BDG, I just don't think you are proving them correctly. 

P.S: I did like your ideas in the Keybook though.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #148 - 08/06/05 at 23:55:22
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That's nice Lev, but your evaluations for the Nc6 evaluations are not critical the most testing line in the Euwe Defense is Gallaghers c5 against Bd3. I mean he is a Grandmaster right. I am really tired of seeing your blitz games as proof of success OTB. I mean these are not tests with GM in mind. I mean Diebert and I agree that until we get to test some of these variations against I.M and G.M then these are merely idle conversations. 

Computer analysis Lev, that is the answer, and before you start trippin, know that it was I who started these debates on the board, so I am not anti-BDG, just anti Lev not using technology to prove this.




Teyko, you have to understand, that of all the BDGs I have played almost none have been with the Bd3 c5 line that Gallagher mentions. That is first.   

Secondly, although I play chess a lot, none of the titled players (IMs and GMs) have gone for an Euwe Defense with either 7...Nc6 or  6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 c5 . Geez, man, it is easier for you to say, let's see Gallagher's line!  What can I do if my opponents do not oblige?  Grin

You want to know what defenses I get? OK, I will list them.

1. Teichmann Defense, 5...Bg4

2. Vienna Defense, 4...Bf5

3. Langeheinecke Defense, 4...e3

4. Bogoljubow  Defense,  5...g6

I do not get that many Euwe Defense games.  The lines I get go 5...e6  6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 00 8 Qe1 Nbd7  or  7...h6 8 Bd2

You complain about not getting Gallagher's line? Why don't you start a new thread where  we can discuss it?

Ciao.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #147 - 08/06/05 at 23:24:40
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That's nice Lev, but your evaluations for the Nc6 evaluations are not critical the most testing line in the Euwe Defense is Gallaghers c5 against Bd3. I mean he is a Grandmaster right. I am really tired of seeing your blitz games as proof of success OTB. I mean these are not tests with GM in mind. I mean Diebert and I agree that until we get to test some of these variations against I.M and G.M then these are merely idle conversations. 

Computer analysis Lev, that is the answer, and before you start trippin, know that it was I who started these debates on the board, so I am not anti-BDG, just anti Lev not using technology to prove this.

  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #146 - 08/06/05 at 22:32:08
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BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT  EPISODES

I once played FM Eric Schiller some blitz, at the 1995 NY Open. We agreed to play a BDG.  Well, he was so scared to play his Euwe Defense, with 7...Nc6 , even though he recommended it!  Our match was of 5 games.  He won 2 and I won 2.  In the last game, instead of going into a BDG, he chickened out into a French Defense.  After winning the last game, he claimed the BDG 'refuted'. I called as he was leaving, "You did not refute anything! The score is 2:2 in our BDG match!". 

It should be noted that Schiller played ....c6 lines. He never accepted the f3-pawn but played 4...c6

Years later, he cited the Zilbermints Gambit against the Euwe Defense as a way of getting a nice attack.

And so I think: Why is Schiller afraid to play 5...e6 against the BDG? Double standard? 

  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #145 - 08/06/05 at 20:18:29
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That's better, but you still missed one:  14.Rfb1 is clearly impossible.  14.Rf1 is what you meant.

You called this a Winawer, Advance Variation.  No it isn't.  It's a MacCutcheon.

Yes, you played well, but your opponent did not.  You missed some better moves that I'm sure you've seen by now.  It was only a 5-minute game, so no big deal. What did you have in mind if he had played 14...Qb4?  If 15.O-O-O Nxe5.

I think the double !! needs to be reserved for really great moves.  You gave yourself !! for a couple of routine moves, especially your 20th.  Perhaps you should think about toning it down a notch.  One ! will do.

You said "this game demonstrates that avoiding the BDG can just get you into trouble."  You really are overstating it.  All it shows is black played poorly in a MacCutcheon French.  Again, I think you need to tone it down a bit to make your case for the BDG.   

I hope you find these comments helpful.   Smiley

- Lost Highway

  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #144 - 08/06/05 at 18:20:54
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Gambit -

I tried to follow your game against cedartree.  Unfortunately for you, the game score is inaccurate.  Black's 6th move is impossible, but I could continue because you obviously meant 6...Bxc3.  Then, you totally omitted black's 11th move.  I gave up.

You seem to do this almost all the time.  How do you expect anyone to agree with your analysis if we can't even follow your notation?  Take more care.  You may get more helpful feedback if you do.   Wink   

- Lost Highway


I corrected the game score. Please see my previous message.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #143 - 08/06/05 at 12:14:05
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Gambit -

I tried to follow your game against cedartree.  Unfortunately for you, the game score is inaccurate.  Black's 6th move is impossible, but I could continue because you obviously meant 6...Bxc3.  Then, you totally omitted black's 11th move.  I gave up.

You seem to do this almost all the time.  How do you expect anyone to agree with your analysis if we can't even follow your notation?  Take more care.  You may get more helpful feedback if you do.   Wink   

- Lost Highway
  
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