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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE (Read 170033 times)
kylemeister
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #262 - 09/26/07 at 03:25:27
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For the record, US master titles are based on a (minimum) rating of 2200.  Last I was aware of the statistics, the FIDE and USCF ratings curves coincided/crossed at that level.  That is, USCF 2200 = FIDE 2200, although on average (over the whole range of ratings) USCF was about 40 points higher than FIDE.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #261 - 09/26/07 at 02:09:03
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A real titled player? None of this Life Master/National Master (about 2100 FIDE?) malarckey.   Something that can be understood outside US and somewhat respected.

In a long game. 

Where both parties are sober.

No simuls (you gave a simul against a WGM before - comically)

Preferably not blindfolded. One eye covered and one hand tied behind back is permissible. 

We await....
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #260 - 09/26/07 at 01:18:17
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Yet you post one of my 5 minute games? Oh no you don't, Top-Notch. I'm going to post one of my games where I beat a titled player anyway.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #259 - 09/24/07 at 19:28:53
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Gambit wrote on 09/24/07 at 19:04:30:
Yeah, "lambchopsrulz" is pretty original. As for my game with Mr. Sarwat, I'll return to it later. I probably made a mistake there, somewhere. However, I can post plenty of blitz BDG games where I beat titled players.


That's quite alright Lev, as I rarely see the point of examining Blitz/Rapid games in their entirety anyway.

Toppy Smiley

  

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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #258 - 09/24/07 at 19:04:30
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Yeah, "lambchopsrulz" is pretty original. As for my game with Mr. Sarwat, I'll return to it later. I probably made a mistake there, somewhere. However, I can post plenty of blitz BDG games where I beat titled players. 

I will have to post these games another time, as I have a doctor's appointment in New York today.

  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #257 - 09/24/07 at 07:47:44
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TopNotch wrote on 09/24/07 at 06:00:12:
Looks like the BDG isn't a forced win after all, not even in blitz.


But you have to admit "lambchopsrulz" is an awesome name.
  

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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #256 - 09/24/07 at 06:00:12
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Just thought I would add some balance.  Wink

[Event ICC ]
[Site Internet Chess Club]
[Date 2007.04.16]
[White Zilbermints]
[Black W-Sarwat]
[WhiteElo 2245]
[BlackElo 2274]
[Opening Blackmar gambit]
[ECO D00]
[TimeControl 5Min]
[Result 0-1]
[ICCResult White resigns]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6
8. g4 e6 9. g5 Nd5 10. Bd3 Bb4 11. O-O O-O 12. Ne4 Nd7 13. h4 e5 14. c3 Be7
15. Qh5 g6 16. Qh6 exd4 17. h5 dxc3 18. hxg6 fxg6 19. Nf6+ N7xf6 20. gxf6
Rxf6 21. Rxf6 Bxf6 22. Bc4 cxb2 23. Bxb2 Bxb2 24. Rf1 Qb6+ 25. Kh1 Qd4 26.
Rf4 Qd1+ 27. Kg2 Be5 28. Rf3 Qc2+ 29. Rf2 Qxc4 {White resigns} 0-1

Looks like the BDG isn't a forced win after all, not even in blitz. 

Toppy Smiley
« Last Edit: 09/24/07 at 16:41:17 by TopNotch »  

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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #255 - 09/23/07 at 21:18:24
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Hey, everyone, I'm back! Been busy with school, checking out pretty girls Grin and other things!

Now, I have played a Zilbermints Gambit at the Internet Chess Club recently. So, stop whining, because this is not a 3 or 5 minute game.

Zilbermints - "lambchopsrulz"
Internet Chess Club
G/15
22 September 2007

1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 e6  6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 Nc6 8 00 Nxd4 9 Kh1 Nf5  10 Qe1 00  11 Rd1 Bd7  12 Ne5 Nd6
13 Qh4 h6  14 Bxh6! gxh6  15 Qxh6 Nf5  16 Bxf5 exf5 17 Nxd7 Nxd7  18 Rxf5 Qe8  19 Rh5 Nf6  20 Qh8 mate.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #254 - 09/11/07 at 12:57:09
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Another thought: if White has to spend a tempo (8.a3) on protecting Bd3 anyway, it may be a good idea to force a concession from Black in return. There are two tries.
The first is 7.Bb5+
a) my first thought was just 7...Nc6 anyway, but 8.0-0 Bd7 9.d5 Nxd5 10.Nxd5 exd5 11.Qxd5 0-0 12.Rad1 Be6 13.Qe4 looks fine for White; despite Arkhein's remarks White still has a clear lead in development and once again h7 is vulnerable. But why not 8...0-0!? Fritz thinks White is OK after 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.Ne5 Bb7, but I am not impressed.
b) 7...c6 8.Bd3 and White chuckles. That may turn into annoyance after 8...Nbd7 9.0-0 c5. Of course 9.Qd2 is possible, but then again: why not 7.Qd2 at once?
c) 7...Bd7 8.Qe2 a6 9.Bd3 Nc6 10.0-0 Nb4 and White's compensation is questionable.

The second idea is 7.Bc4. This is not the optimal square for the bishop, sure, but it is not a bad square either. I have found two otb games with relatively strong players behind the black pieces; in both happened 7...0-0 8.0-0 and both were won by Black.
a) 8...a6 9.Qe2 b5 10.Bd3 Bb7 11.Rad1 Nbd7 12.a3 c5 13.dxc5 Bxc5+ 14.Kh1 Qc7 15.Bxf6 Nxf6 16.Ng5 Be7 17.Rxf6 Bxf6 18.Nxh7 Rfd8 19.Rf1 Qe5 Stoessel-Karr, FRAchT 1999. There is no need to look at this game in detail, as 9.Qe1 is an obvious improvement:
a1) 9...b5 10.Bd3 Bb7 11.Qh4 h6 12.Bxh6 1-0.
a2) 9...Nc6 10.Rd1 b5 11.d5 Nxd5 12.Nxd5 Bxg5 13.Nb6 Qxd1 14.Qxd1 Be3+ 15.Kh1 Bxb6 16.Bd3 and White is OK (ie a little more than Black is OK).
b) 8...Nc6 9.Qd2 (but once again - 7.Qd2) Na5 10.Bd3 b6 11.Qf4 g6 12.Qh4 Nc6 Herges-Grabarczyk, GER 2005, and White missed 13.Rae1 Nh5 (Bb7 14.Ne5) 14.Ne4 Bxg5 15.Nexg5 Bb7 16.g4 Nf6 17.c3 h5 (ugh) 18.Bxg6 fxg6 19.Nxe6 Qd7 20.Qg5 and White is close to winning. That is not the end of the story though - 8...Nc6 9.Qd2 a6 is much more challenging:
b1) 10.a4 (huh?) b6 11.Rad1 Bb7 12.Qf4 Nb4 13.Qh4 h6 and for once 14.Bxh6 is bad.
b2) 10.Qf4 Nh5 and White has nothing to show for his pawn.
b3) 10.Qf2 h6 (but not b5 11.Bd3 h6 12.Bxh6!) and again White is one tempo short for 11.Bxh6.

I guess you get my point. If White has to play x.Qd2 so often, it is best not to commit his bishop yet and play 7.Qd2 at once.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #253 - 09/11/07 at 11:55:10
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ArKheiN wrote on 09/11/07 at 06:48:31:

In fact I don't think that the main idea of the BDG is: winning tempi for advantage of development.
When you look at 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3, it seems like a normal position, and after 5..e6 White does not developpes fastly than a normal position like 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4.

The main idea is to get a "normal position" where the f file is open (how often you see the contrary in "normal chess", we push the f pawn deeply to open? The Grand-Prix attack in the sicilian is an idea.)


I have neglected the remarks on ...c6 etcetera, because at the moment I am mainly interested in 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.f3, which obviously rules out ...Bf5 and ...Bg4 ideas.
I have noticed that these BDG positions also can arise via a sideline of the Scandinavian: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Bd3 and the sole difference is the pawn on f2. Drawing a conclusion is quite difficult; at one hand just an open f-file probably does not fully compensate the lack of the pawn, at the other hand that Scandinavian line hardly shows Black playing optimally.

So I have been waisting my time trying to find a good defense against 8.a3, just because I felt like. The move is not just a cat and mouse game like 1.a3 a6. First of all 9.0-0 is a kind of Zilbermints Gambit: Nxd4 10.Kh1 Nxf3 11.Qxf3 and the inclusion of the two pawn moves must benefit Black if anyone. Remains 8.a3 a6 9.Qd2 b5 (pursuing the ...Nb4 again) 10.Qf2 Bb7 11.Qh4 (the ideal square for the queen, but White's play has consumed a lot of tempi) Theiss Geb Bizgar-Mercadal Melia, Calvia Mallorca 2004, Qd7 12.0-0 0-0-0!
This looks risky, but is justified by White's slow play. It also makes Qh4 look a bit silly.
a)13.a4 h6 (Nb4 14.axb5 Nxd3 15.cxd3 and Be7 is insufficiently protected) 14.axb5 Nxd4 15.Be3 Nxf3+ 16.gxf3 axb5 17.Bxb5 Qd6. My evaluation is that White has practical chances, but that his compensation is not enough. Note 18.Ra7 Qb4! and 18.Ra4 Nd5!
b)13.Rad1 Nxd4 14.Bxb5 Nxf3+ 15.gxf3 Bc5+ 16.Kh1 Qe7 17.Bd3 h6 and White is a sound pawn behind.
If White has nothing better than 9.Qd2 I feel White should play it at move 7. This will be responsible for some more selfharming. Guess what? I like it.
  

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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #252 - 09/11/07 at 10:30:33
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Quote:
I disagree.  If you look at the databases, the move 9...c6 is not all that common. In my experience, the most common line is 9...Nxf3 10 Qxf3, the Exchange Sub-Variation. This line is known to be good for White due to strong pressure on the f-file and rapid development. 
 
I am in the process of putting together a series of articles on the Zilbermints Gambit. In it I deal with the cowardly move  9...c6,  as well as other responses.


Here we go with the "coward" nonsense again. 9...c6 is not "cowardly", it's a good chess move. This isn't a test of how big black's "cojones" are, it's about winning a game, or finding the truth about a line, whichever you prefer. For me, if I knew my opponent played this junk, I would whip out 9...c6 in a second - I don't care what most people play, I just need to know what I'd play, and how I'd deal with it. The fact remains, whatever the practical chances of the opening are, that it will not stand up to a rigorous scrutiny of this line.

8.a3 is an interesting idea, as I remember we had quite a debate on it before. I must say that I agree with MNb (not for the first time), in that 8.a3 just feels wrong - and both of us are quite experienced gambiteers, so it's not like it's a patzerish observation. Of course, talking in general about these things is just as bad as calling a move "cowardly" because you can't refute it, I will take a look when I arrive home from work. I personally play the BDG from time to time, so I have no reason to "bash" the gambit, I just want to ascertain the truth, which I personally feel to be =/+ or -/+; practical chances aside (I personally enjoyed the earlier reference to this being similar to going all in with a 2-7 in poker), I don't believe white has enough for a pawn against precise play. No doubt, if black is imprecise, then white's play can be deadly - the same can be said about openings like the Danish, Morra, to which I would compare this gambit; no better, no worse. All are probably not 100% sound against correct play.
  

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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #251 - 09/11/07 at 06:48:31
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Bibs: I'm sure you never played the black side against a GOOD BDG player. It's always more simple in theory.

In fact MNb, I don't think that the main idea of the BDG is: winning tempi for advantage of development.
When you look at 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3, it seems like a normal position, and after 5..e6 White does not developpes fastly than a normal position like 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4.

The main idea is to get a "normal position" where the f file is open (how often you see the contrary in "normal chess", we push the f pawn deeply to open? The Grand-Prix attack in the sicilian is an idea.)

And then, White does a setup where his f-file open is useful (the most evident lines comes from 5..Bf5 and 5..Bg4 where there is early pressures on the weak f7). If Black does 0-0, then the plan becomes easy: attack on the kingside where the Queen will rapidly come on h4 via e1, thanks to the non-existing pawn on f2. You can put two rook on the f-file to watch the Nf6 or pawn f7, or just sacrifice pieces, and go on f3 then g3 or h3 to mate. The most convincing attacks against a black castle are seen against 5..e6 and 5..g6 where Black underestimated the danger.

For me best defense is to play 5..c6 (4..c6 is great too) because you can castle kingsise without really fearing a mating attack, where f7 is generally safe and where there is no weakness and can try to exchange pieces one by one, just play in a Caro-Kann style. Hard to show enough compensations there.

PS: Yes 8.a3 seems slow but necessary  if White want to mate on the kingside, and now doing ..0-0 is risky, the bishop c8 isn't very good, Black may play some slow or weakening moves too by now.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #250 - 09/11/07 at 01:32:38
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Gambit wrote on 09/10/07 at 23:14:12:

Ideally, yes, that should be the case. However, this is no utopia, and to err is human. Plenty of games available in which Black castled kingside.Go ahead and look at these games.

I did and as always I did not find Black's defense convincing. Not that I know a good one. But I do not play hope chess, so I do not assume that my opponent will castle kingside and allow me to finish him off with a well known sacrifice. You see, my opponents very seldom fall for tricks like that.
I have also looked at

Bocanegro Moreno-Hofstetter, EM/CL/Q18-1 2002
and especially Baptista-Lima, Lisbon 2002.
This is an interesting one, as Black may castle kingside anyway: 8.a3 h6 9.Bf4 0-0 10.Qd2 Ne8!! 11.0-0-0 (as 11.Bxh6 does not work) a6 12.d5 exd5 13.Nxd5 and Black went on to win, though White may have enough compensation here. Black can try 11...Bd6 instead.

Bibs, Khalifman's remark on players harming themselves is only true for titled players, which is about 1% of the chesspopulation.  Your remark on BDG-players not becoming good is essentially a chicken/egg question.
I have paid attention to the Ruy Lopez the last 25 years and I am not a BDG-player, but still will not become good. Neither will you, depending on the standards you set (GM?). So could you next time provide something constructive like a convincing refutation of 8.a3 ? Gambit, Arkhein and I are old enough to decide for ourselves how to waste our chesslives. Thank you.
  

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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #249 - 09/11/07 at 00:01:07
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Always difficult to ascertain the level of correspondence players. One cannot help become extra-wary when they devote themselves to such gambits and several lose by move 20. Ratings?

Brings to mind el Khalif's notes on Ruy Lopez - that players deliberately harm themselves by not studying it. Perhaps the same with BDG - individuals actually set back their progress by hours spent attempting to reach equality. Theese are hours spent not studying positional chess. 

Thus it is not that good players do not play the BDG, but it may be that BDG players do not become good. 
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #248 - 09/10/07 at 23:14:12
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MNb wrote on 09/10/07 at 22:44:06:
Indeed, 8.a3 is a prophylactic move, not a developing move. Bad sign for a development gambit. And of course after 8...h6 Black will not castle kingside as long as that sac on h6 is possible. Every schoolboy learning chess everywhere in the world should know that.


Ideally, yes, that should be the case. However, this is no utopia, and to err is human. Plenty of games available in which Black castled kingside.

Leisebein - Schulz, correspondence, Germany 2004, 1-0/13
Lutz Faber - Peter Gross, corr., Germany 2004, 1-0/23 
Lank - Bilsel, correspondence, BDG thematic, 1998, 1-0/16
Sawyer - Voelker, corr., email, BDG thematic, 1998, 1-0/34
Antonio Costa - Gian De Lorenzo, ICCF corr., 1999, 1-0/37

There are more games, but you get the idea.

There are also games where Black Castles Queenside or keeps the king in the center.

Leisebein - Huber, corr. 2001,    1-0/26
Bosman - Hordjik, Utrecht 2001, 1-0/50

Go ahead and look at these games.
  
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