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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE (Read 170157 times)
lnn2
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #37 - 07/15/05 at 05:55:18
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Why be afraid to enter into your opponent's home "preparation" if you know it is utter rubbish?  Grin 

Certainly, in a standard 2 hour time control, i cannot imagine people being too unhappy to face LDZ's monkeys (or at least the ones he has shown us so far). There is a difference between dangerous novelties/rare but still practically dangerous continuations *in main openings*, and absurd, unsound or anti-positional moves simply to get your opponent out of book.
  
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MNb
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #36 - 07/15/05 at 05:38:28
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@LDZ
You are the one who is constantly whining on computers ....
If comparing with 19th century farmers is ridiculous, you might prefer to compare the anti computer policy in chess with the anti alcohol policy in the USA some 70 years ago.
If you really think the BDG is sound, you must be confident, that it will survive computer analysis too.
Enough of this; as soon as I have time I will take a close look to the Zilbermints Gambit - this time I think this name is justified - with the aid of my computer. Cheesy
  

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Sevenviolets
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #35 - 07/15/05 at 03:24:11
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Well, I don´t agree with your opinion on using computers to analyse corr. games. Of course I have used computer engines in my three games here. And I have no feeling of guilt:-) At all. It is called advanced chess. It is not computer against computer but human + computer against ... whoever or whatever. 
  Next year I´m going to participate in Freestyle Chess Tournament which will be (at least I hope so) played on playchess.com. Of course, I want to win Smiley This year, team called Zacks won. For more, see www.chessbase.com. I think it is the best example of new trends in chess, when humans are not playing against computers but with computers. Of course, I see your points. Sometimes, computers make all work instead of you. One might be not involved in a game so much as she/he was before, when playing on her/his own. You´re right. It sometimes happen in some of my games. In other I´m very much involved on contrary. It depends on the position if it does suit me or not. I like closed positions more or very attacking ones. 
  Well, I will be happy to have a chance to play with you some 5mins games on playchess.com. Playing BDG, white, black. Just let me know when you´re online. One little problem is time, when here is 20:00, in USA is something about morning. We need to settle on some convenient time. Looking forward to play with you. I have a trial nick NoDrawOffer. It is just for training purposes on this Freestyle tournament I have mentioned.
  
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Lev D. Zilbermints
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #34 - 07/15/05 at 02:25:10
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"computer-using cheats"
I do not understand this pseudo-principal attitude. Forbidding to use computers in corr. chess is about the same as forbidding helmets in American football or technical improvements on cars in Formula-1 races.
Before anyone accuses me of cheating: I only play in email-tournaments of ICCF. Then you know, that everyone uses one chess program or another.
I would like to refer to EU-ch corr.chess Walter Mooij, who made it perfectly clear to me, that computers are of non value on his level - and yes, he owns the most advanced soft- and hardware.
Those who object against the use of computers are similar to early 19th century farmers, who objected against railways, which in their opinion would sour the milk of their cows.


Comparing this situation to 19th century farmers is ridiculous. We live in the early 21st century, not the 19th. Who knows, maybe the 19th century farmers were afraid of pollution? Anyway, this is neither here nor there.

  I don't mind using the computer to STORE games. However, I draw the line at using the computer to assist in analyzing an e-mail game in progress.  It is my view that a corres. chess game should be between two people, not between two computers.  The machine analyzing the game for the player when he/she should be doing the work... no, thanks!!

  FYI, I really think a chess match between a computer and a human is not a fair one. A computer can think millions of variations per second, a human, maybe 10-20 moves. It's like playing an opponent who has 3 heads while you have one.

  Old-fashioned? Traditional? Sure. But that is me, so stop whining about it. My next post will focus on games with the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense to the BDG. 

You have to understand, with today's technology, I have no wish to see this turn into a contest of whose computer analyses is better.
In the old days, you had books. However, books could not analyze for you. The computer, however, CAN analyze the game and key moves for you.
  
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MNb
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #33 - 07/14/05 at 21:03:26
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"computer-using cheats"
I do not understand this pseudo-principal attitude. Forbidding to use computers in corr. chess is about the same as forbidding helmets in American football or technical improvements on cars in Formula-1 races.
Before anyone accuses me of cheating: I only play in email-tournaments of ICCF. Then you know, that everyone uses one chess program or another.
I would like to refer to EU-ch corr.chess Walter Mooij, who made it perfectly clear to me, that computers are of non value on his level - and yes, he owns the most advanced soft- and hardware.
Those who object against the use of computers are similar to early 19th century farmers, who objected against railways, which in their opinion would sour the milk of their cows.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Lev D. Zilbermints
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #32 - 07/14/05 at 16:10:19
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You miss something about an OTB game. Even in an OTB game, the preparation of opening is very important. And there, our correspondance analysis can be a great work for the preparation before a match. If I had to play you in a time limited game, I would prepare myself against your openings and I would put my analysis over the board against your Zilbermints gambit of the BDG where your analysis seems to not resists because you only analyse over the board in a time limited game.

Even the top player Anand or Kasparov uses or used computers to help in their preparation before a match and their always come with a powerful noveltie in the opening wich has been analysed seriously and not just a novelty over the board.



  Perhaps you would. But remember this: I play many different openings, some of which you have not seen. More to the point, if you and I were paired in a chess tournament, you would be hard-pressed to remember ALL the analyses against ALL OF MY OPENINGS. I can be unpredictable.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #31 - 07/14/05 at 14:13:20
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You miss something about an OTB game. Even in an OTB game, the preparation of opening is very important. And there, our correspondance analysis can be a great work for the preparation before a match. If I had to play you in a time limited game, I would prepare myself against your openings and I would put my analysis over the board against your Zilbermints gambit of the BDG where your analysis seems to not resists because you only analyse over the board in a time limited game.

Even the top player Anand or Kasparov uses or used computers to help in their preparation before a match and their always come with a powerful noveltie in the opening wich has been analysed seriously and not just a novelty over the board.
  
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dLev D. Zilbermints
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #30 - 07/14/05 at 12:54:38
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I had a friend who used to play 1 Nh3 and 2 Na3 in blitz games, the rationale being that if Black took either knight as a time-saving device, it would open files of attack for his rooks.  Made sense when you had five minutes on the clock, but was bone-useless as a strategic plan in "real" chess.

Zilbermints's approach to chess at speed is like drawing stick figures as quickly as possible and calling them art.  What makes chess so interesting to me is the combination of sport, science, and art.  Zilbermints's approach is only a sport--no time for critical analysis or real creativity.

And I'm a little put off by his constant attacks on correspondence players.  Granted the slower rate of play eliminates some of the sporting element, but we are not all computer-using cheats and I resent the implication.  For many of us, it's the lone opportunity we get to enjoy chess due to work/family commitments, health, age, or location.  Just because Zilbermints doesn't have the patience (or ability?) to spend time analyzing a position does not make correspondence chess a game for cheaters.  If your gambits are sound, what are you afraid of?



  Let me respond to both Markovich and HgMan, point by point. Perhaps then you will understand  where I am coming from.

  First of all, T. Costa WAS NOT the first to play the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense to the BDG. The first game on record is J. Fechner - W. Schneider, First Blackmar-Diemer Gambit World correspondence  chess tournament, 1968-1975.  Sources give this game as 1970.

  Secondly, after this game, no one ever bothered to play 9 Kh1 again for a quarter century. I was the first one to deeply analyse the move and play it. Thus  it is called the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense to the BDG.

  Thirdly, 1 Na3 and 1 Nh3 are perfectly good moves. You can play them in regular games as well. For example, 1 Na3 e5 2 b3 with a follow-up 3 Bb2. In some lines the Knight can go to c4.  I could say the same about 1 Nh3, except it's on the Kingside -- 2 g3 and 3 Bg2.

  Fourth, five-minute chess are good for testing ideas prior to playing them in regular tournaments. It is not my fault if people are too conservative -- or too chicken! -- to play 7...Nc6 and then 8...Nd4 in OTB tournament chess against me. Since 1998, I only had one (1) player do it. 

Fifth, I never said postal chess was bad. All I said is that
I have no way of knowing when someone is using the computer to help or not. Granted, most correspondence players are decent folks.  Unfortunately, all it takes is a few bad apples to spoil the barrel. But that can be said of any sport. Look at Tonya Harding is skating a few years back. Or baseball players using steroids. Or the infamous "Birchbeer" using a computer to play his BDG games on ICC from 1994-1998. Just making a point.

Sixth, my approach is not "drawing stick figures and calling them art". Baloney!! I have created many beautiful games over-the-board, beating masters and international masters.  I analyse, all right.  It is just that I do not have time for correspondence chess because it takes too long. The same way you prefer correspondence chess to OTB chess because of various commitments.

   Sure, I played a few correspondence games back in 1995-96  and 2000. My win against German BDG'er Kurt Stummer with White is theoretically important.  There I tried the line 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 c6 6 a3!

   The point is that in over-the-board chess, I can create lots and lots of complications, with a limited time control to analyse. In correspondence chess, however, you can move the pieces around -- something you cannot do in OTB chess -- and have more chance of avoiding all the complications. I am not going to sit there for hours  and hours, figuring this and that, just to have my opponent move the pieces around and avoid the fun. Simply put, correspondence chess is not my style any more than OTB chess is the style for some correspondence players.
I prefer having my opponent to analyze in hours, not days and weeks. Puts more pressure on them, you see.

Later, I will post some of my few correspondence games here. I will also post some of my OTB games that demonstrate "sport, science and art" on my behalf.

You like correspondence, that is well and good.  Me, I prefer playing over-the-board games. At least there I can be certain no one will use Fritz8 computer program to pull any tricks. Not when I see my opponent face to face.

Maybe at some point in the future I will try correspondence chess, but not now. For now I will stick with the over-the-board chess.
  
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HgMan
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #29 - 07/14/05 at 07:52:38
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I had a friend who used to play 1 Nh3 and 2 Na3 in blitz games, the rationale being that if Black took either knight as a time-saving device, it would open files of attack for his rooks.  Made sense when you had five minutes on the clock, but was bone-useless as a strategic plan in "real" chess.

Zilbermints's approach to chess at speed is like drawing stick figures as quickly as possible and calling them art.  What makes chess so interesting to me is the combination of sport, science, and art.  Zilbermints's approach is only a sport--no time for critical analysis or real creativity.

And I'm a little put off by his constant attacks on correspondence players.  Granted the slower rate of play eliminates some of the sporting element, but we are not all computer-using cheats and I resent the implication.  For many of us, it's the lone opportunity we get to enjoy chess due to work/family commitments, health, age, or location.  Just because Zilbermints doesn't have the patience (or ability?) to spend time analyzing a position does not make correspondence chess a game for cheaters.  If your gambits are sound, what are you afraid of?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #28 - 07/13/05 at 21:19:41
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That is why I always say that correspondence chess and OTB chess are vastly different: AMOUNT OF TIME FOR ANALYSES!! That said, it would be interesting to play Leisebein in an over-the-board game, in say, Game/60. How would he fare?


Again with the time limits!

You know, I would be happy to play the Black side of 1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 Nc6  3. Bb5 f5 at speed or even, against a not-very-savvy opponent, at 6/30.  But the fact is, it's unsound!  If we're here to debate what's good to play at speed, then please, let's say so!  If we're debating what constitutes Chess Truth, then let's leave off with the time limit considerations.

P.S.  If the "Zilbermints Gambit" was first played by T. Costa, why isn't it called the "Costa Gambit?"  Sorry, I know I'm bad, but I just had to ask that.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Lev D. Zilbermints
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #27 - 07/06/05 at 12:28:53
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That is why I always say that correspondence chess and OTB chess are vastly different: AMOUNT OF TIME FOR ANALYSES!! That said, it would be interesting to play Leisebein in an over-the-board game, in say, Game/60. How would he fare?
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #26 - 07/06/05 at 07:55:53
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Hello Lev, I respond here from your post in the Arkhein-Markovich match tread. 

Quote:
Good to see that ArKheiN has appeared again. He has not been answering my queries about the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense of the BDG for awhile


I always was here, but you didnt really respond to my lasts analysis.

Quote:
The point is that ArKhein said that after 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 ef3 5 Nxf3 e6  6 Bg5 Be7  7 Bd3 Nc6 8 00 Nxd4  9 Kh1 c6  10 Nxd4 Qxd4 11 Qe1 Qc5 12 Qh4 h6  13 Ne4 Ne4 14 Be7 Qe7 15 Qxe4 f6 was -+ for Black.


Of course If you read what I say again I dont say it is -+ but -/+, it's a difference, and I watched the game from Leisebein but this analysis and the -/+ assessement come from Leisebein himself after the game have been played, surely that he found an improvement for black somewhere in the game. 
  
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Lev D. Zilbermints
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #25 - 07/01/05 at 16:10:42
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Hello,

This is to inform everyone that I am finishing up my book on the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
to the BDG. Once the manuscript is completed, I will publish it.

If you want to read the first two articles, check out Unorthodox  Openings Newsletter #10  and #12, by Davide Rozzoni of Italy. Type "Unorthodox  Openings Newsletter" on your computer and you will get the results.   

  The book took YEARS to complete. I started writing in
1995; put a notebook copy together in 2001; expanded it in 2002/2003; and finished in 2003. Another expansion occured in 2004 and 2005, with new games played and discovered. 

  History of the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense to the BDG; the first Zilbermints-Kopiecki Blitz-Discussion Match, 1993; all the major Black moves after 9 Kh1! ;
the Gambit Delayed; the Gambit Declined; Avoided;
Transpositions; Related Systems; and more, are all covered.  There are  something like 200+ games, 1950 - present.

  Anyone interested??
  
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Lev D. Zilbermints
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #24 - 06/29/05 at 10:21:32
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Grin

I recently found an old game on the Internet Chess Club with the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwwe Defense.
Not exactly sure about the real names of the players, though. White is T. Costa. Black is FIDE-rated player, according to his notes; he is a from Holland.  Since "tcosta" 's account no longer exists, it is difficult to say who he was. All I know is he preferred Standard games over blitz.  Here is the game:

  tcosta - POELJEV
  Internet Chess Club
  15 min. 12 sec. increment  Standard
  18 December 1999

1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3  5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 Nc6  8 00 Nxd4  9 Kh1 Nc6  10 Qe1 h6  11 Qh4 Rg8  12 Bd2 Nb4  13 Bb5+  Bd7  14 Bxd7+  Nxd7  15 Qh5 Nf6  16 Qb5+  Kf8  17 Qxb7 Nxc2  18 Rac1  Nb4
19 Ne5 Qc8  20 Qf3 Rb8  21 Ne4 Nbd5  22 Nxf6 Nxf6  23
Nc6 Rb6  24 Ba5  Rb7  25 Bc3  Bd6  26 Bxf6 gxf6  27 Qxf6 Rg7 28 Rc4 Kg8  29 Rh4 h5  30 Rxh5, 1-0.

  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #23 - 06/29/05 at 07:10:11
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Read my post again, I always said the line after 11.Bxf6
I did 2 separate analysis, one after Leisebein's 10.Nxd4 Qxd4 11.Qe1 and one after your 10.Nxd4  Qxd4  11.Bf6 Bf6 12.Ne4 Be7 
13.Qh5 g6  14.Qh6 f5!
If you read all my messages again you will see that Im clear and you did not read them very seriously I think.   
  
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