Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match (Read 10923 times)
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #38 - 07/11/05 at 12:36:01
Post Tools
Quote:

If you decline to play my 2 responses at same time in 2 separate games, I will play only 10.Be3 to "secure"equality where the 10.Bd3 is more a test to know if it is playable or not.



1.d4 d5  2. e4 dxe4  3. Nc3 Nf6  4. f3 exf3  5. Nxf3 Bf5  6. Ne5 e6 7.g4 Bg6 8.Qf3 c6  9. g5 Nh5 10.Be3 Nd7 and if 11. Nxg6 then 11...hxg6

Sorry, while I was happy that Patrik was willing to play three, I really don't want to play even two games here at once.  However if you like, I will be happy after this game to take the Black side of 10. Nxg6 hxg6  11. Bd3.   

Or perhaps Bonsai, whose game here is finished, would like to take you up on that!
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #37 - 07/11/05 at 12:12:03
Post Tools
Markovich said :
Quote:
But Patrik had three difficult games already before I found the time to defend the line you see being played here, so instead of playing him, I'm playing gambit fan Pablo Schmid ("ArKheiN"). 


But Patrik would not reprensent the 8.Qf3 but the 8.Bg2 where he thinks he can play for an advantage. I did not play that move because I don't know this move as good as 8.Qf3 and I let Patrik defend 8.Bg2 against you for another match.

About our game, I found 2 big different way of play after 9..Nh5 

The first is 10.Be3 (or Nxg6 followed by Be3 generally transpose in most variations) where this move is the most solid but maybe not the more active, but I'm practicaly sure that there is equality here in long-term.

The second way : 10.Nxg6 hxg6 11.Bd3!? is more in the spirit of the BDG but it's more risky too, and I'm not totaly sure but I think I can manage for a draw with accurate play from both side, but I think this way is maybe less "sound" because I sacrifice another pawn, for more activity.

I analysed hard to know if 10.Nxg6 hxg6 11.Bd3 was playable, and Im confident about playing for a draw here. It was too hard to choose 1 variation to defend here because both way are too different and it's for that I took somes days to analyses this critical choice, but next moves will be easier to find I think.

So, I propose you to play the both variation at same time, and we can call it GAME A and GAME B.
If you decline to play my 2 responses at same time in 2 separate games, I will play only 10.Be3 to "secure"equality where the 10.Bd3 is more a test to know if it is playable or not.

GAME A
1.d4 d5  2. e4 dxe4  3. Nc3 Nf6  4. f3 exf3  5. Nxf3 Bf5  6. Ne5 e6 7.g4 Bg6 8.Qf3 c6  9. g5 Nh5 10.Be3


GAME B
1.d4 d5  2. e4 dxe4  3. Nc3 Nf6  4. f3 exf3  5. Nxf3 Bf5  6. Ne5 e6 7.g4 Bg6 8.Qf3 c6  9. g5 Nh5 10.Nxg6 hxg6 Bd3
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Teyko
Full Member
***
Offline


Gambits Dammit

Posts: 247
Location: Scotland
Joined: 10/01/03
Gender: Male
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #36 - 07/11/05 at 10:56:03
Post Tools
To be honest Markovich, 

I have always kept tabs on the rest of the guys and the games that have developed. I have shared correspondence with Patrik and Arkein about both of their games and told them that I will be happy to share my databases, personal analysis and engines if need be. 

I patrik's game with MnB, he has played beautifully and I really have only wanted to ask questions about the positions and thematic ideas after the result. 

In your game against Arkein I plan on being much more involved as I believe there are two or more lines that test your convictions on Nh5, and I think it serves the critical advancement of BDG theory to win your position.

As for my time, I was lecturing at SIUC from March to May and could not fully devote myself to chess, and I did not have a computer in my hotel room, which is why I probably did the work I was paid to do.

At that time, we were still discussing the Zeigler variation and I think Patrik has set himself apart in regards to his Alchemy system. I think he has seriously advanced the realms of theory in the sense that Ng5 is a serious attempt at the full point in the c6 systems. 

Arkein seems to be just as industrious in his attempts to find the truth and support the Blackmar Diemar Gambit in all its greatness. 

And I while I believe that you can play the blackmar diemar gambit against anyone in the world and come out with at least a draw, I have recently seen the need to expand my chess knowledge to include a variety of systems. Namely the french and the sicilians as I want to play the Scotch. 

The amount of work is huge, so I figured let them play their games and only intervene if asked or if the positions demand it. 

When I first started these conversations a year ago, it was me against the world. No one believed the gambit was feasible and (you: Markovich) and (GM Eric Prie) were some of my harshest critics. I actually appreciate that as it forced me to dig deep and increase my playing strength: as you know computers don't understand the Blackmar Diemar Gambit without you feeding it the moves and analyzing your combinations yourself. 

This was the case in Erics game, as I would come up with my own variations and as a human really see an unclear position. Fritz and Shredder could not help me, so I was a little insecure about playing my own moves against a "GM". 

I am saying this to say I have always been involved and interested in the advance of BDG theory. And hopefully when Eric plays me in the Hubsch I will create another novelty worth my name. 

  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #35 - 07/11/05 at 09:45:12
Post Tools
Quote:
I hope I am not clogging up this interesting thread with pointless ramblings, but what started these series of games? Was there an argument over whether this line is playable? Or are just doing it for fun to advance theory (sounds like a good idea to me  Smiley ). If so, it would be really nice to see some other games like this in other parts of the forum using other openings.


We do seem to have a little BDG chess club, don't we?  It is, however, all in the spirit of the Seach for Truth and not to see who can beat whom.

It really started with debates here as to the worth of this gambit.  On the one hand you have your gambit fans, on the other, your detractors (I'm one of the latter).  So gambit fan Patrik Schoupal ("Sevenviolets") challenged the detractors to some games.  Put or shut up, you might say.

But Patrik had three difficult games already before I found the time to defend the line you see being played here, so instead of playing him, I'm playing gambit fan Pablo Schmid ("ArKheiN").  Tommy Curry ("teyko"), who seems to be one of those I-must-play-gambits-or-die-of-boredom people, has been a big BDG fan here but, due I assume to pressing demands on his time, for the time being just sort of lurks around.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10779
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #34 - 07/11/05 at 05:45:56
Post Tools
In my opinion the BDG might be renamed as the BDTG, so how could I forget? Grin
Thanks for your invitation to discuss the KID, but I have to reject for two reasons:
1. I do not play and have never played the KID with eiter colour.
2. My knowledge on this opening is very superficial.
So in stead of my usual well thought nonsense, you would get ill-based nonsense.
I have told you before, that you are free to ask questions and annotate before the end of the games. Concerning why Rf8 and not o-o, see the analysis of Markovich. I find it hard to believe indeed, that the manoeuvre Qd1-e1-e2 is not refuted.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Teyko
Full Member
***
Offline


Gambits Dammit

Posts: 247
Location: Scotland
Joined: 10/01/03
Gender: Male
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #33 - 07/10/05 at 22:35:20
Post Tools
Quote:
It all started with Teyko, who persevered that the BDG is playable on the highest level.


awh, thanks MnB. You remembered. No but seriously I still think that it true. 

I have been following your game with Patrik and I am hoping that we can ask questions and annotate it after the result. I have really been wondering about the Qe1 and Qe2 manouver and why castling was such a worry for you. 

I also posted something in the King's Indian section for you, and was hoping that at some point GM Prie and I can take it to the matresses in the Hubsch counter gambit since he believes that it is a bust.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10779
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #32 - 07/10/05 at 21:52:27
Post Tools
It all started with Teyko, who persevered that the BDG is playable on the highest level.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Darthkrieger
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I'm your Daddy.

Posts: 22
Location: Missouri
Joined: 07/06/05
Gender: Male
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #31 - 07/10/05 at 17:11:12
Post Tools
I hope I am not clogging up this interesting thread with pointless ramblings, but what started these series of games? Was there an argument over whether this line is playable? Or are just doing it for fun to advance theory (sounds like a good idea to me  Smiley ). If so, it would be really nice to see some other games like this in other parts of the forum using other openings.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #30 - 07/10/05 at 16:43:54
Post Tools
Quote:
When I was analysis my next move after 1.d4 d5  2. e4 dxe4  3. Nc3 Nf6  4. f3 exf3  5. Nxf3 Bf5  6. Ne5 e6 7.g4 Bg6 8.Qf3 c6  9. g5 Nh5

a serious question came in my mind. Isn't Nh5 even stronger after the very similar 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.f3 Bg4 6.h3 Bh5 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 e6 9.Qf3 c6 9.g5 Nh5 ? The only difference is that the pawn is on h3 here and not on h2, sometimes in the similar positions it's better on h2 and sometimes it's better on h3. Here, it give a new hole in the black squares : g3 and the h3 pawn is even weaker than on h2. 

But Leisebein played this position a few times like this :
1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d5 3.e4 dxe4 4.Nc3 exf3 5.Nf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bh5 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 e6 9.Qf3 c6 10.g5 Nh5 11.Bd3 Qxd4 12.Nxg6 fxg6 13.Be3 Qh4+ 14.Kd2 Ng3 15.Rhg1 Bd6 16.Qg4 Qxg4 17.hxg4 O-O 18.Rg2 Nd7 19.Rag1 where the games finished with a draw.

The good point for Black of this similar way of play with the pawn on h2 is that White couln't put the queen on g4 here but g3 isn't an hole here. Of course it's still an interesting question I think.

And about our game, I will try to give my move tomorow.


I am happy to see White's h-pawn on h2 and not h3 since if 10. Bd3 Qxd4  11. Nxg6 fxg6  12. Be3 Qh4+  13. Kd2 Nd7, next 14. Qg4 is (as you point out) unplayable.  White therefore can't discomfort Black's knight in this variation, which preserves its ambition of going to f4.   

  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #29 - 07/08/05 at 18:01:47
Post Tools
When I was analysis my next move after 1.d4 d5  2. e4 dxe4  3. Nc3 Nf6  4. f3 exf3  5. Nxf3 Bf5  6. Ne5 e6 7.g4 Bg6 8.Qf3 c6  9. g5 Nh5

a serious question came in my mind. Isn't Nh5 even stronger after the very similar 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.f3 Bg4 6.h3 Bh5 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 e6 9.Qf3 c6 9.g5 Nh5 ? The only difference is that the pawn is on h3 here and not on h2, sometimes in the similar positions it's better on h2 and sometimes it's better on h3. Here, it give a new hole in the black squares : g3 and the h3 pawn is even weaker than on h2. 

But Leisebein played this position a few times like this :
1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d5 3.e4 dxe4 4.Nc3 exf3 5.Nf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bh5 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 e6 9.Qf3 c6 10.g5 Nh5 11.Bd3 Qxd4 12.Nxg6 fxg6 13.Be3 Qh4+ 14.Kd2 Ng3 15.Rhg1 Bd6 16.Qg4 Qxg4 17.hxg4 O-O 18.Rg2 Nd7 19.Rag1 where the games finished with a draw.

The good point for Black of this similar way of play with the pawn on h2 is that White couln't put the queen on g4 here but g3 isn't an hole here. Of course it's still an interesting question I think.

And about our game, I will try to give my move tomorow.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #28 - 07/08/05 at 11:13:32
Post Tools
Thank you Jorge for your posted game, it illustre that my analysis about 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Bf5 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Nf6 6.Ne5 e6 7.g4 Ne4 8.gxf5 Qh4+ 9.Ke2 Nc6 10.Nxc6 Nxc3+ 11.bxc3 Qe4+ 12.Kf2 Qxh1 13.Na5
is better for White. 

You are the welcome if you wanna contribute to the analysis Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JorgeQ
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 2
Location: Lima
Joined: 07/08/05
Gender: Male
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #27 - 07/08/05 at 09:59:50
Post Tools
Hi! I am Jorge Quiñones, maybe in the future i can post in a regular way, now i´m on exams period  Shocked

Now, i want to share a friendly corr game:



Quiñones Borda,J - Gutierrez Medina,R [D00]
2002

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Bf5 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Nf6 6.Ne5 e6 7.g4 Ne4 8.gxf5 Qh4+ 9.Ke2 Nc6 10.Nxc6 Nxc3+ 11.bxc3 Qe4+ 12.Kf2 Qxh1 13.Na5 0-0-0 14.fxe6 Rd5 15.Qg4 f5 16.Qh5 Bd6 17.Nc4 Bxh2 18.Qf3 Qxf3+ 19.Kxf3 h5 20.Bg5 h4 21.Ne3 Ra5 22.Bd3 g6 23.Rh1 Bg3 24.Bc4 Ra3 25.e7 1-0

Saludos 

Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #26 - 07/07/05 at 20:56:52
Post Tools
Just to give some analysis about Black's other move than 9..Nh5 to show what is about playable for Black.

A. 9..Nd5, 10.Bd3 Nd7 11.Nxg6 hxg6 12.0-0 Qe7 13.Nxd5 cxd5 14.c4 White have the better chances to not say +/- with the most accurate play.

B. 9..Bh5 I can play Qf2 or Qf4, I think I would choose Qf2 and now : 10..Ng4 11.Nxg4 Bxg4 12.Bd3

C. 9..Ng8 (a bit ugly at first sight but keep an attack to d4 ) and here : 10.Bd3 Qxd4 11.Nxg6 hxg6 12.Bf4 Bb4 13.0-0-0 Bxc3 14.Bxg6!!
But 12..Bc5! is maybe the best continuation and can follow 13.Rf1 e5 14.Bg3 Qe3+ 15.Qxe3 Bxe3 16.Ne4 with about equality.

D. 9..Nfd7 10.Nxg6 hxg6 11.Bd3 Be7 12.0-0(Rf1!?)
and now 12..Rf8 or 12..0-0 are  quite good for white, mostly after 12..0-0 where White will play h4 and have a very nice attack on the kingside. But it would take too much place to put my analysis on 12..Rf8 and 12..0-0 but I can say that 12..Rf8 can hope for equality.

E. 9..Qxd4?! seems stupid at first sight but have some compensation after 10.Nxg6 hxg6 11.gxf6 Qh4+ 12.Qf2 gxf6 and is like +/= so, tha'ts not that bad for Black but I dont think too much people like to play in this way(but this move has been played a few times!)

I will need 1-2 days more before deciding wich move to play against your 9..Nh5 where the next white's move is important for the BDG theory because this is about an unknown territory but I know with my new analysis that Black have no more than equality.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #25 - 07/07/05 at 11:05:16
Post Tools
To MNb: Quote:
"After the sacrifices : 7..Ne4 8.gxf5 and white have surely an advantage, for example ..Qh4 9.Ke2 Qf2" 
9...Nc6 is the modern way to play the Gunderam Counter Gambit.


Ok, after some analysis I agree that 9..Nc6 is an improvement, but White are still +/= at least after 10.Nxc6 Nxc3 11.Bxc3 Qe4+ 12.Kf2 Qxh1 13.Na5 no?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10779
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #24 - 07/06/05 at 21:08:17
Post Tools
"After the sacrifices : 7..Ne4 8.gxf5 and white have surely an advantage, for example ..Qh4 9.Ke2 Qf2"
9...Nc6 is the modern way to play the Gunderam Counter Gambit.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo