Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Snyder variation (Read 23037 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #26 - 10/04/05 at 10:14:11
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Even Rowson points out that 1.e4 c5 2.b3 is not something Black should take lightly.  I agree with MNb that 2...d6 3.Bb2 Nf6 followed by ...g6 is the biggest problem.  White's not worse however and some study might reveal more promising methonds for the first player.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #25 - 10/04/05 at 05:17:56
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TalJechin, 

As I think others have pointed out here, 2.b3 is a very underrated system against the French.  But as MNb also points out, 2.b3 against the Sicilian is another beast entirely.  I just don't see this variation being worth a great deal of my research time considering I have so many main-line worries to address! Cry


Well, this is of course why stuff like 2.b3 are so dangerous. - White can play it every time he gets the chance, building up a good feel for how to play it, while black never gets around to look at it properly! Grin
  
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #24 - 10/04/05 at 01:39:43
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TalJechin, 

As I think others have pointed out here, 2.b3 is a very underrated system against the French.  But as MNb also points out, 2.b3 against the Sicilian is another beast entirely.  I just don't see this variation being worth a great deal of my research time considering I have so many main-line worries to address! Cry
  
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MNb
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #23 - 10/03/05 at 22:39:13
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Maybe a black kingside fianchetto is not so drawish:
1.e4 c5 2.b3 d6 3.Bb2 Nf6 4.Nc3 g6 5.f4!? Nc6 6.Bb5 or Bg7 6.Bb5+. Black's threat is parried with Qe2 of course. White plays a setup similar to the Bb4 variations of the Classical Dutch (with colours reversed); Black's d-pawn makes the difference of course. This is rather unexplored.
Dutch IM Paul Boersma has written a booklet (64 pages) on Sicilian Flank Systems. He does not think very high of the manoeuvre Nc3-d5xf6, as after exf6 "Black only benefits from the doubled pawns: open e-file, the possibility f6-f5.
  

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TalJechin
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #22 - 10/03/05 at 02:43:20
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I think 2.b3 (the well known Gelashvili variation of the Sicilian Defence) would make an excellent topic for TalJechin's next book!  (if he's recovered from writing his last excellent book)


Well, I've actually started working on 1.e4 e6 2.b3!? - which is a very interesting way to take on the french imo. Though I don't plan to include 2.b3 vs the SI...

I've played the Gelashvili on and off since the late 90s, after seeing a note on it in Gallagher's 'Beating the Anti Sicilians', where white tried to play it like a kind of KG. I think I found a little improvement on Joe's analysis (mentioned briefly in the Creative Aggressor), though the early f4 as a pawn sac in the Gelash is probably not quite sound. Sad

As I think I've mentioned in another thread on 2.b3, the problem is an early ...g6 set-up, as white will have to defend against a possible Nf6xe4 (if Nc3 is pinned to Bb2) when the resulting positions are too equal for my taste....  Undecided
  
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #21 - 10/03/05 at 00:50:07
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(That's not enough names???)

BK, I found it more interesting to discuss the name of this opening than the actual variations because Black has a choice of about six different moves that provide for approximate or complete equality.  That is, from an objective sense.   

The main point of a move such as 2.b3 is to get away from theory.  So good luck on finding more theory than going through the games of those few people who have played it!

Is there a specific line you want us to look at?
  
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basqueknight
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Re: The Snyder variatios
Reply #20 - 10/02/05 at 23:24:31
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Ahh thats better a real topic but anyways.

Who can i add to the list besides, Moshe Czerniak,Snyder,GM Tamaz Gelashvili?
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #19 - 10/02/05 at 22:47:41
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A good start for all of those variations mentioned by MNb would be the games of the heroes of 2.b3.  (As a sidenote off topic as usual, I personally don't think 2.b3 has quite the same sting against the French but I love to be proven wrong.)
  
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MNb
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #18 - 10/02/05 at 22:34:19
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After 1.e4 c5 2.b3 Black has at least three important defences:
A) the d6/e5 setup mentioned in Martin's article.
B) 2...d6 3.Bb2 Nf6 omitting e7-e5.
C) 2...e6 and probably best is 3.Nf3 (3.Bb2 b6!), transposing to the Westerinen Variation or Finnish Attack. We can start discussing names again.  Grin
The reason sources are not discussed, is that they do not exist. So Basqueknight, why don't you come up with a specific line? If you want to play this, you will have to do a lot of work on your own.

I was not really convinced by Martin's article on A. In one of the two games White played Nf3-g5 followed by f2-f4, but Black could have prevented this by an early h7-h6 and then what?
The important question for White is when to play f2-f4.
On C you should consult other threads.
On B I don't really have a clue.
  

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basqueknight
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #17 - 10/02/05 at 22:03:34
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EARTH TO EVERY ONE THIS TOPIC IS NOT ON THE NAME BUT THE OPENING IT SELF!! 

ok im done hollaring how about we take a look at actual games or books or maybe periodicals. 

Im not aware of a lot of em off the top of my head but would be interested.
  
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MNb
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #16 - 10/02/05 at 21:11:00
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I still prefer Czerniak Variation (31 games), but must admit that Gelashvili has a strong claim too. I suppose Czerniak-Gelashvili Attack is too long?
I support fully Glenn Snow's request to TalJechin. It would be a very good idea, if TJ wrote a book on b3 against the French and the Sicilian.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Glenn Snow
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #15 - 10/02/05 at 20:11:15
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By the way, in case it's not clear to anyone the "(jk)" in one of my posts stood for "just kidding".  Probably I should have just wrote that out.  Wink
  
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lost highway
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #14 - 10/02/05 at 18:09:42
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Well, naming after Short was not a suggestion just a premonition of what's to come...

Imo, it should be called the Gelashvili variation. - And webaddresses make lousy names...


@ Lost Highway: I don't think 2.b3 is sufficiently strange & unsound for your suggestion. Grin  - Actually, I think it's quite playable!  Wink

Taljechin -

Yes, I think you are correct.  Also, LDZ would probably brand 2.b3 a "chicken" move compared to his manly 2.b4 obsessions.

- Lost Highway
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #13 - 10/02/05 at 17:31:41
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I think 2.b3 (the well known Gelashvili variation of the Sicilian Defence) would make an excellent topic for TalJechin's next book!  (if he's recovered from writing his last excellent book)
  
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TalJechin
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #12 - 10/02/05 at 12:26:56
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I don't really like the idea of naming 1.e4 c5 2.b3 the Short variation.  Just because he's a very strong grandmaster who played it a few times doesn't seem like a very good reason to name it after him.  I guess this goes back to my proposed topic of "what criteria should be used to name opening variations?".  I would rather see the name go to whoever developed the variation the most and used it quite often in actual practice.


Well, naming after Short was not a suggestion just a premonition of what's to come...

Imo, it should be called the Gelashvili variation. - And webaddresses make lousy names...


@ Lost Highway: I don't think 2.b3 is sufficiently strange & unsound for your suggestion. Grin  - Actually, I think it's quite playable!  Wink
  
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #11 - 10/02/05 at 11:15:38
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You could ask Lev D. Zilbermints (remember him?) who has probably already named this after himself.

- Lost Highway
  
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #10 - 10/02/05 at 10:50:42
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I too really like the addition of Stefan Bücker to the Chesscafe writing staff.  Wether you agree or disagree with his views he always interesting and usually original.

I don't really like the idea of naming 1.e4 c5 2.b3 the Short variation.  Just because he's a very strong grandmaster who played it a few times doesn't seem like a very good reason to name it after him.  I guess this goes back to my proposed topic of "what criteria should be used to name opening variations?".  I would rather see the name go to whoever developed the variation the most and used it quite often in actual practice.  Of course a chess opening doesn't have to always be named after a chess player but I think there should be some really compelling reasons for doing so.  For instance due to it's frequent discussion on this forum I propose that 2.b3 be called "the chesspublishing.com forum variation".  (jk)
  
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TalJechin
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #9 - 10/02/05 at 03:46:38
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Ok, without going too deeply into the philosophy, sociology, and literary criticism of it all, giving 2.b3 the name of Robert Snyder just seems wrong.   

As someone else pointed out, Czerniak made a study of the line, and it's been known for decades before Snyder played and taught it. His main claim to the name is that he has encouraged some of his students to play it.  The only reason he may get away with it is that 2.b3 is so obscure that nobody will really challenge it.  Let's challenge it. 

Let's change the name of this thread to either "1.e4 c5 2.b3" or the "Czerniak Variation of the Closed Sicilian".  ChessPub has a fair amount of influence on opening names, as certain people in the BDG threads have discovered.  Let's use that influence for good causes!


Well, Snyder did write the first book 'The Snyder Sicilian' (or rather pamphlet as it wasn't very thick) on 2.b3 in the late 1970s. 

But names tend to change as new players take over, and the last decade the main proponent is GM Tamaz Gelashvili who seems to be playing it whenever he gets the chance... 

So imo The Gelashvili Variation would be well earned, just look at the links below!

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=49264

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1170580

The problem is not really Snyder's name on the variation (though I can't say I like it as it means something in danish...) but rather the english language and culture dominating the world and pushing the names of English and American players. 

So, in the future I suppose 2.b3 might become 'the Short variation' instead, as Nigel has played it a handful of times against players he should beat anyway, ratingwise... 

An example of this would be e.g. Andrew Martin's articles on 2.b3 at chessville, focusing on a game by Short and with some other english players mentioned in the side notes - neither Gelashvili or Czerniak are mentioned... 

http://www.chessville.com/instruction/Openings/Martin/Index.htm

The articles are quite nice and instructive for those who wish to try out 2.b3, and I don't think Martin deliberately tried to diminish the influence of Gelashvili or Czerniak or anyone else. It's quite understandable that when taking a quick look at an interesting system, you tend to notice the names of people you know or have met, or at least you know their approximate playing strength, or stories about them etc etc... 

Had these articles been written by e.g. a russian GM, quite different names would surely have been featured... 

The problem is more that almost everybody understands english nowadays but the majority of chess articles at the big sites and magazines & books etc are written by native speakers, who naturally will be writing for an audience of native speakers while the real audience is chess players in the whole world... 

- But of course, it wouldn't hurt if writers were aware of this cultural bias when writing. One recent nice thing in this respect is that Chesscafe.com has recruited Stefan Bücker for a monthly article. At least it's a step in the right direction...
  
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #8 - 10/02/05 at 02:01:18
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Glenn, 

IM Semkov just recently said it doesn't matter what name an opening has, and it changes all the time.  I have a linguistic bent, and like the power of being able to call something "Fred", "George" The Hundred Years' War" or whatever.  Ok, so George may be a girl, and the The Brits can't count.  

But giving things a name shows that we have some control over them.  We need to find appropriate names, and give credit where due whenever possible, but naming things is part of our humanity.  It's part of our ability to organise our lives in the chaos of reality.

Ok, without going too deeply into the philosophy, sociology, and literary criticism of it all, giving 2.b3 the name of Robert Snyder just seems wrong.  

As someone else pointed out, Czerniak made a study of the line, and it's been known for decades before Snyder played and taught it. His main claim to the name is that he has encouraged some of his students to play it.  The only reason he may get away with it is that 2.b3 is so obscure that nobody will really challenge it.  Let's challenge it. 

Let's change the name of this thread to either "1.e4 c5 2.b3" or the "Czerniak Variation of the Closed Sicilian".  ChessPub has a fair amount of influence on opening names, as certain people in the BDG threads have discovered.  Let's use that influence for good causes!


*Sigh*

Toppy Grin
  

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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #7 - 10/02/05 at 01:47:05
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Glenn, 

IM Semkov just recently said it doesn't matter what name an opening has, and it changes all the time.  I have a linguistic bent, and like the power of being able to call something "Fred", "George" The Hundred Years' War" or whatever.  Ok, so George may be a girl, and the The Brits can't count.   

But giving things a name shows that we have some control over them.  We need to find appropriate names, and give credit where due whenever possible, but naming things is part of our humanity.  It's part of our ability to organise our lives in the chaos of reality.

Ok, without going too deeply into the philosophy, sociology, and literary criticism of it all, giving 2.b3 the name of Robert Snyder just seems wrong.   

As someone else pointed out, Czerniak made a study of the line, and it's been known for decades before Snyder played and taught it. His main claim to the name is that he has encouraged some of his students to play it.  The only reason he may get away with it is that 2.b3 is so obscure that nobody will really challenge it.  Let's challenge it. 

Let's change the name of this thread to either "1.e4 c5 2.b3" or the "Czerniak Variation of the Closed Sicilian".  ChessPub has a fair amount of influence on opening names, as certain people in the BDG threads have discovered.  Let's use that influence for good causes!
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #6 - 10/01/05 at 22:19:39
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This would possibly make a good topic itself.  What criteria should be used when naming opening variations? I'm not quite sure I have the energy right now for such a discussion but others may.  (Albatross! -- thought I'd add that before someone else did.)
  
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #5 - 10/01/05 at 10:05:56
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Yes, people should do a little historical research before the start slapping on their own names or any other made up name.  Robert Snyder has contributed to the development of the variation but it doesn't surprise me that probably someone else's name should be used for 2.b3.

Someone could call it the Larsen Opening Deferred (1.b3 c5 2.e4)  Grin

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Glenn Snow
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #4 - 09/27/05 at 23:38:17
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Yes, people should do a little historical research before they start slapping on their own names or any other made up name.  Robert Snyder has contributed to the development of the variation but it doesn't surprise me that probably someone else's name should be used for 2.b3.
« Last Edit: 10/01/05 at 22:17:15 by Glenn Snow »  
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basqueknight
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #3 - 09/27/05 at 21:43:28
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I only went with what martin wrote! sorry for the offense.
  
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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #2 - 09/27/05 at 21:36:45
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Snyder Variation?
Moshe Czerniak has played 2.b3 since 1943: so Czerniak Variation is more appropriate.
  

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Re: The Snyder variation
Reply #1 - 09/25/05 at 23:44:56
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You should check out these other threads:
http://altmax.com/cgi-local/cpf/YaBB.cgi?board=AntiSicilians;action=display;num=...

http://altmax.com/cgi-local/cpf/YaBB.cgi?board=AntiSicilians;action=display;num=...

This last thread mentions other related threads (one of which may or may not be the first thread here) in one of the posts (by me incidentally).  Perfectly clear, right?
  
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basqueknight
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The Snyder variation
09/25/05 at 23:14:06
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I am always searching for ways to take black out of book or at least in to the unknown of there book. So i was looking at an article by Andrew Martin called NOSHER ON ICE

It starts off with 1.e4 c5 2.b3!?

It goes on to sight a game Short,N-Prasad,D ch-commonwelth Mubai IND 14-01-2004

it was very interesting and i was wondering what every one thought of this opening choice. I think i might try it at the club this week.
  
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