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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1. Nc3 (Read 22070 times)
bravehoptoad
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Re: 1. Nc3
Reply #14 - 01/28/06 at 19:54:04
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I think Black's got a way better game.  White's knight on h8 is going to drop.  Black's development is easy and it's going to take White's QR forever to see the light of day.
  
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Strptzr
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Re: 1. Nc3
Reply #13 - 01/27/06 at 20:18:57
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To Bravehoptoad : 

1. Nc3, d5, 2. e4., d4 3. Nce2, e5 4. Ng3, Nf6 5. Bc4 (as Black has failed to obstruct this), h5 6. Nf3 (indeed, there is no better)), h4 (Black also has no better : the rest allows Ng5) 7. Ne5: (Moser-Moese in 1984 saw Ne2 instead leading to some unclear position), hg3 8. Bf7+, Ke7 9.Ng6+, Kf7 10. Nh8+, Kg8 11. hg3. Whose position do you prefer ? (Rooks are cheap nowadays, and we do still have a whole middlegame before us, but still...)

  
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Strptzr
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Re: 1. Nc3
Reply #12 - 01/27/06 at 08:55:36
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MNB, the piece sac is dubious to (Would this program allow me to spell out his first name ?) Van Geet because it does not fit in with his style. But then, many many current lines in 'his' opening do not fit his style. As Keilhack writes, what white needs to do in this position is consolidate his endgame advantage. I'd gladly take this position as white any time... in fact it is what I hope for when I start out with 1.Nc3..(Have you ever tried to stop such a central pawn roller ? Even if you find a way to sacrifice your extra piece as efficiently as possible you'll only get two pawns for it).
By the way : have you read the review on Keilhacks book by the 'supervisor' of the Flank Openings on www.jeremysilman.com ? (It is about the original version in German, not about the updated translation. A posting from 'our' Tracke gets quoted in the book.)
I'll look into the bravehoptoadline this weekend.
  
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bravehoptoad
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Re: 1. Nc3
Reply #11 - 01/27/06 at 03:27:37
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I quit playing 1. Nc3 when I realized that in the line 1. Nc3 d5 2. e4 d4 3. Nce2 e4 4. Ng3, Black doesn't even have to prevent White's supposedly "strongest" move 5. Bf4 to get a good game, e.g., 4...Nf6, 5. Bf4 h5!? and Black has a dandy game.  Keilhack gives 6. Nf3 (6. h4 Bg5) h4 7. Nxe5 hxg3 8. Bxg7+ Ke7 9. Ng6+ Kxf7 10. Nxf8+ Kg8 11. hxg3.  Then with 11...Qe8! Black keeps White's knight trapped and threatens to win it with ...Nh7 & ...Kxh8.  The best Keilhack can say about this line is "Well, White has nothing better."  

Yick.  I ended up getting into this line against some 90-year old Russian who was 100 points lower-rated than I was, and was thrilled when he offered me a draw deep in the middle game.  

Still have nightmares.  
  
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MNb
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Re: 1. Nc3
Reply #10 - 01/27/06 at 02:59:24
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You guys might be interested to learn, that a few years ago DD van Geet himself called the piece sac dubious ....
  

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Re: 1. Nc3
Reply #9 - 01/26/06 at 13:19:25
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The piece sac is very interesting indeed, but its a matter of taste whether one likes white or black..
Can't say Black is obliged to enter this line too, since he could play less ambitiously in the opening having already seized enough space. even if White light squared bishop is developed, Black's still solid enough: e.g. 4... Bd6 5. Bc4 Nf6 6. Nf3 Nc6 ..Perhaps Black can even plan to castle queenside?!

Anyhow, i finally learned something about the Van Geet at last! thanks

  
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Re: 1. Nc3
Reply #8 - 01/26/06 at 10:10:23
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Quote:
i never understood why 1. Nc3 d5 2. e4 d4! 3. Nce2 will be bad for black as some claimed.


Well, this is certainly not bad, of course, but it is playing on White's territory.  After, say, 3...e5 4.Ng3 Be6 (to stop Bc4) 5.Nf3 f6 (5...Nc6 6.Bb5!) 6.c3 d3 (6...c5 7.Bb5†) 7.Nxe5!? things get very interesting - White generally picks up the pawns on e5 and d3, with three pawns for the pice and a fairly impressive phalanx of central pawns, while Black's king is somewhat discomfited and he has trouble co-ordinating his pieces.  All in all, it seems to me that White's game is the easier to play here.
  

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Re: 1. Nc3
Reply #7 - 01/26/06 at 04:32:04
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i never understood why 1. Nc3 d5 2. e4 d4! 3. Nce2 will be bad for black as some claimed. As a 1. d4 player i prefer black already. 

( similarly 1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 e6 3. g3 d5 4. Bg2 d4 always looked good to me!)

So if White's best after 1... d5 is tramsposing to a Veresov with 2. d4, then the van geet is irrelevant.
  
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MNb
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Re: 1. Nc3
Reply #6 - 01/26/06 at 03:01:48
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I am not an expert on the Van Geet Opening, but I think Black faces some fresh problems after 1.Nc3 c5 2.Nf3 and 3.d4. White has some nasty tricks available with Ndb5, Nd5 and Bf4. This limits Black's possibilities to transpose to a regular Sicilian.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Strptzr
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Re: 1. Nc3
Reply #5 - 01/25/06 at 12:49:44
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Interesting, even though at the moment I fail to see how this evades the 'safer' sicilians (=those with 2...e6). 
  
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Re: 1. Nc3
Reply #4 - 01/25/06 at 12:29:42
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Moro explained himself the reason in New in Chess : this move order avoids Polgar's Taimanov/Kan and allow the Najdorf.
  
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Strptzr
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Re: 1. Nc3
Reply #3 - 12/02/05 at 14:42:02
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Indeed, if you want a viable double king's pawn 1...Nf6 is the way to go, with the 'risk' of a Veresov (or even a Chigorin reversed, allowing Moro his pet line*). Or even other lines : Keilhack gives a line with a queenside fianchetto, admitting this is no refutation, but it is not unlogical or weak either...


*Or former pet line as it seems...
  
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MNb
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Re: 1. Nc3
Reply #2 - 12/02/05 at 05:56:40
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1.Nc3 Nf6! 2.f4 d5 is Bird, 2.d4 d5 is Richter Veresov, 2.e4 e5 is Vienna. This might be the explanation.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Strptzr
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Re: 1. Nc3
Reply #1 - 12/02/05 at 05:25:09
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With 1. Nc3 you can reach 1. e4  positions without allowing 'symmetry' : 1...e5 scores abysmally. But Judith had been playing 1..c5 on every occasion, so that can't be the explanantion.
  
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Strptzr
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1. Nc3
12/01/05 at 08:02:11
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Nigel Short on Morozevich-Polgar, San Luis, Round 12.
"I cannot recall the Van Geet Opening (1.Nc3) ever making an appearance in an event of this level. Of course the opening in itself is based on sound principles: its only real drawback is that it has virtually no independent significance. If Whites wishes to take the position down original paths then he must choose second-rate moves with which to do it. "
So why would Moro have chosen this opening (to transpose on the next move already) ?
  
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