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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Dealing with 1.d4 deviations (Read 17276 times)
HgMan
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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #20 - 01/27/07 at 17:02:56
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I've been enjoying this book very much and found it very useful.  I raised a concern with the BDG recommendation in another thread, and came across another interesting deviation from John's recommended repertoire.  In a recent correspondence game, I came across:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5 h6 4.Bh4 d6 5.c3 Nbd7 6.Nbd2 g5 7.Bg3 Nh5 8.e4 Bg7 9.Bd3 O-O 10.Qb3 Kh8 11.Qc2 

Moves 1 through 10 follow the book, but 11.Qc2 was an interesting try.  I wasn't expecting it, but it makes some sense: after 10...Kh8, the queen is no longer terribly useful on that diagonal, so White drops it back to c2 to apply pressure along another useful diagonal.  I don't think 11.Qc2 really alters John's recommendations; the game continued 11...g4 12.Ng1 f5 13.f3 fxe4 14.Bxe4 e5 and is ongoing, though I'm still experiencing a spot of discomfort due to later play in a somewhat chaotic position.  Does 11.Qc2 invite the repetition 11...Kg8 ?  This didn't strike me as terribly useful for Black, but I was struck at how much more useful the White queen was on c2... 

Any thoughts from anyone?
  

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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #19 - 09/15/06 at 20:13:29
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I own the book as well.  It's not specialized towards 1...d5 or 1...Nf6.  It's meant to be for anybody that plays a defense that involves "classical" development of the King's bishop (i.e. those lines where Black DOES NOT fianchetto the dark-squared bishop).  Joe Gallagher wrote a whole book for King's Indian and Grunfeld players, Beating the Anti-King's Indians.  This one is for when white doesn't cooperate and play 2.c4 against players that play the Black side of the Queen's Gambit, Nimzo-Indian, Slav, etc.

If you are a King's Indian, Grunfeld, or Benoni player, this book won't do you any good.  Otherwise, it's highly recommended that you get it.
  
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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #18 - 09/06/06 at 11:38:32
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Markovich – I think this may be a question of nomenclature. After 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 c5 4 g3 cxd4 5 Nxd4 Bb4+ I say that 6 Nc3 transposes to what Chris Ward had dubbed the Kasparov-Nimzo in his recent book (although to be sure some people call this a Symmetrical English still), and that I won’t cover it since (i) it’s in Chris’ book and (ii) is arguably a Nimzo proper anyway and thus outside my remit. I then deal with 6 Bd2 (usually called a Symmetrical English) and 6 Nd2 (I think usually classified as a Catalan) and express regret that these cognate positions are usually scattered rather randomly around the Informator classification system. So in a sense I do go there and in a sense I don’t.

Re your post about the Tarrasch and 2...e6, of course you're right and in fact 2...e6 was what I meant to type; my post makes no sense as it stands, I'm afraid. My point was supposed to be precisely that my book is not perfectly designed for Tarraschists against 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 since they'll be wanting to play 2....e6 and my suggested lines against the Colle and Torre (though not the London) depend upon not having 2...e6 in. The exact reverse of what I typed, in fact.
  
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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #17 - 09/05/06 at 19:44:38
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Markovich wrote on 09/05/06 at 18:47:41:


That is a huge and confusing territory, and I'm surprised Cox goes there.  But perhaps he's just recommending a line or two for Black?  I myself play 4. g3 here (usually via 3. g3 c5  4. Nf3).  I would be exceedingly interested to hear how Black can transpose into a Nimzo or a Benoni, something which I very much doubt is possible.

Modified:  Ah, having read more of this thread, I now see that Cox doesn't go there.  A wise choice, since it couldn't have been covered well in a short space.


Black can get a Nimzo after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Bb4+ if White plays 6.Nc3.  The line usually comes about like this: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Nf3 c5 5.g3 cxd4 6.Nxd4.  Of course if White avoids 6.Nc3 there's no Nimzo.




  
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Markovich
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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #16 - 09/05/06 at 18:52:26
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As you say the advantage of the Tarrasch is that you cut down on the amount of stuff you have to learn in terms of deviations. My book would help you with 2 Bg5, 2 Bf4, 2 Nc3 or 2 g3. (or 2 e3). 2 Nf3 is not so good since I assume you would want to play 2...Nf6 and my answer to the Colle depends on that (ie on not having ...e6 in yet, since I go 2...Nf6 3 e3 Bf5) You however will only want to play 2...Nf6 if you are willing to play the Semi-Tarrasch after 3 c4 e6 4 Nc3 c5 5 cxd5, since 5..exd5 6 Bg5 here is well-known to be uncomfortable for Black. If you want a pure Tarrasch you have to play 2...e6. White can then play 3 Bg5 (though he doesn't often) or 3 e3, either of which would take you outside the repertoire presented in the book. The lines in either Rizzitano's QGA book or in Aagaard/Lund's Meeting d4 (also quite a good Tarrasch book, which you may well have anyway) are better suited to a repertoire which enables you to get a pure Tarrasch as often as possible.


Actually, if you want to play the Tarrasch, the best way to get it after 2. Nf3 is 2...c5.  White only has 3. c4! and then 3...e6 and there you are.
  

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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #15 - 09/05/06 at 18:47:41
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Quote:

The next unusual lines we see are 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 c5 without 4 d5. Cox shows how Black can still play some form of a Benoni or Nimzo-Indian against 4 g3 or 4 Nc3 here. 
 


That is a huge and confusing territory, and I'm surprised Cox goes there.  But perhaps he's just recommending a line or two for Black?  I myself play 4. g3 here (usually via 3. g3 c5  4. Nf3).  I would be exceedingly interested to hear how Black can transpose into a Nimzo or a Benoni, something which I very much doubt is possible.

Modified:  Ah, having read more of this thread, I now see that Cox doesn't go there.  A wise choice, since it couldn't have been covered well in a short space.
  

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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #14 - 09/05/06 at 11:02:02
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You’re right about a Tarrasch, but of course even after 1…Nf6 and 2….e6 it’s possible to play next 3….d5. Quite a few QGD players start like this since by ‘threatening’ the Nimzo they may make White play 3 Nf3, and then he can’t get a ‘proper’ Exchange. Black may also play 4…c6 now and enter the Semi-Slav this way; some people do this; I think mainly in order to avoid a Slav Exchange. They do have to be ready for 3. g3 like this, but they may be willing to play a Catalan anyway, or they may be going to play 3…c5 once White’s committed to a g3 system.

You don’t need to give up 1….d5 if that’s what you’re playing; you can use the book to put together a repertoire with either 1….d5 or 1….Nf6.
  
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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #13 - 09/03/06 at 22:45:50
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I finally broke down and bought this book because -- dammit -- there's just too much good stuff in here, even though I've based my repertoire on 1.d4 d5.

However, now that I've spent some time with it, it is becoming clear that I'm going to have to base my repertoire on a new main line if I'm going to use this book as a guide -- either Benoni or Nimzo-Indian, since the only move covered after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 is 2...e6.  That pretty much rules out everything else, I think.  (BTW, I'm surprised how hard it is to get back to a Tarrasch after 1...Nf6).

Good book, though.  And it will probably help me to learn some non-classical 1.d4 openings.


So, I'm off to the Nimzo & Benoni section.  Cheers.
  
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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #12 - 03/28/06 at 21:38:41
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Well, I hope my publisher isn't looking, but not that useful at all, I would say. It doesn't cover for example 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bf4. I took the view that that was really more a Tchigorin than a d4 deviation. 1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 is covered, but only lines which probably wouldn't suit a Tchigorin player (in fact the same is probably true even of 2 Bg5). Sorry!


Me too hopes that your publisher is not going to punish you, but I can promise you that I won't forget your name if I find it on your next book. Such a honest and open reply is much appreciated!

Thanks,

Stefan
  
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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #11 - 03/28/06 at 12:18:57
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Well, I hope my publisher isn't looking, but not that useful at all, I would say. It doesn't cover for example 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bf4. I took the view that that was really more a Tchigorin than a d4 deviation. 1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 is covered, but only lines which probably wouldn't suit a Tchigorin player (in fact the same is probably true even of 2 Bg5). Sorry!
  
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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #10 - 03/28/06 at 06:01:46
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As you say the advantage of the Tarrasch is that you cut down on the amount of stuff you have to learn in terms of deviations. My book would help you with 2 Bg5, 2 Bf4, 2 Nc3 or 2 g3. (or 2 e3).


Hello John,

how useful is your book for Chigorin players? I can see that the chapter 2. Bg5 will work for me too, but the others?

Regards,

Stefan
  
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John Cox(Guest)
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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #9 - 01/30/06 at 13:33:30
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As you say the advantage of the Tarrasch is that you cut down on the amount of stuff you have to learn in terms of deviations. My book would help you with 2 Bg5, 2 Bf4, 2 Nc3 or 2 g3. (or 2 e3). 2 Nf3 is not so good since I assume you would want to play 2...Nf6 and my answer to the Colle depends on that (ie on not having ...e6 in yet, since I go 2...Nf6 3 e3 Bf5) You however will only want to play 2...Nf6 if you are willing to play the Semi-Tarrasch after 3 c4 e6 4 Nc3 c5 5 cxd5, since 5..exd5 6 Bg5 here is well-known to be uncomfortable for Black. If you want a pure Tarrasch you have to play 2...e6. White can then play 3 Bg5 (though he doesn't often) or 3 e3, either of which would take you outside the repertoire presented in the book. The lines in either Rizzitano's QGA book or in Aagaard/Lund's Meeting d4 (also quite a good Tarrasch book, which you may well have anyway) are better suited to a repertoire which enables you to get a pure Tarrasch as often as possible.
  
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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #8 - 01/29/06 at 21:20:03
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dsanchez wrote on 01/29/06 at 15:34:19:
While it can invite a Benoni setup



Er, scratch that. No Benoni after 1.d4 d5.  Lips Sealed

  
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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #7 - 01/29/06 at 15:34:19
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Well, I've got a free afternoon.  Sounds like it would be worthwhile for me to stop by the bookstore and give it a closer look. 

I've managed to build a fairly solid, albeit unambitious, repertoire (Bishop's Opening, Closed Sicilian, Scandinavian) that is very compact except as black facing 1.d4.  Facing 1.d4, I try to aim for a QGD Tarrasch.  But while 1...d5 does cut down on the amount of stuff I have to learn, there is still a ton of independent lines that Black needs to be ready for, some worthy of an ECO code, some not (but still playable).  Therefore, I think a book like this could be an important addition to my library.  But the 1...Nf6 move order does confuse the issue a bit, at least with regard to my desire for a compact repertoire based on the QGD Tarrasch.

Recently, in an effort to streamline things, I have begun entertaining the idea of 2...c5 as my universal antidote to 1.d4 deviations.  I hope this warrants coverage in your 2nd edition someday (!).  While it can invite a Benoni setup, you might be surprised how often White declines the invitation down here in the fish pond.  (And not just us fish, either.  It appears that 2...c5 was a popular move order with the big boys back in the early 1900s before the Benonis and Indian defenses became popular.)

Kind regards,
DS

  
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Re: Dealing with 1.d4 deviations
Reply #6 - 01/28/06 at 02:49:00
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I hope inn2 is right: the intention certainly is that a complete repertoire is given after 1 d4 d5 2 (not c4). It's true that the main move order given in each chapter is 1...Nf6 and 1...d5 players will need to search a little more, but I think that was inevitable. One of the advantages of 1...d5 is that it actually cuts down the amount you need to know when facing these lines, which is why there's more about 1...Nf6. But I think there is some useful stuff on why, for example, the Torre is no use against 1...d5.

It's also true that I didn't cover the main g3 Nimzo/Symmetrical English line Inn2 mentions in spite of it being part of the repertoire. I agonised about this: it's always difficult when presenting material where the opponent can just transpose to another opening. In this case since it's so likely Black will have it in his repertoire anyway and since it's been covered so recently by the same published I decided against it (like I did with 2 Nc3 e5 in the Alekhine book). You're damned if you do and damned if you don't: if you leave it out some people will be disappointed because it isn't in their repertoire and they don't have it covered in another book; if you put it in people are cross at the book being padded out with stuff which is in lots of other books and they don't want to have to pay for twice.

Inn2 is right as well that 2 Nf3 c5 isn't covered: partly because I don't like it much myself after 3 d5, and partly because it's in Raetsky/Chetverik. Also, if you were going to play the Benoni with 2...e6 then there's no real advantage to 2...c5 as opposed to 2....e6 (well, it avoids the Torre, I suppose). So 2...e6 is the repertoire.
  
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