Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Last Andy Martin's update on bdg... (Read 13960 times)
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1397
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #17 - 10/03/06 at 16:25:14
Post Tools
I do not usually play 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 a3 line, but I can see the merits of it. First, it is a waiting move; second, it protects the b4-square; third, it prepares 4 b4 if Black does not play a timely 3...a5 . Fourth and last, it makes the opponents think for themselves.

In the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit, I invented a similar line: 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 ef3 5 Nxf3 c6 6 a3! . I scored a number of wins with it. The games and analyses were published in BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT WORLD #79 (October-December 1997 issue).

Uberdeker, Eric Prie, chill out and calm down.  Stop acting like schoolboys and start acting like mature adults. Better yet, why don't you play a match on this forum with 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 a3, the way Patrik Schoupal did with the BDG?

Lev
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
IMAndrewMartin
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 51
Joined: 12/20/02
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #16 - 10/03/06 at 16:08:51
Post Tools
I 'm not sure how this thread veered off topic, but here we are. My own view is that an early a2-a3 in a queens pawn position must be very playable and at least as good as  1 d4 d5 2 Bg5 or 1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 because it gives Black nothing to react against and in many cases may prove useful.

Eric's results confirm the originality of this approach. However, I beleive that Black should be able to equalize pretty easily and how about either 2...g6! or 2...Bf5 as a prelude to a Grunfeld or Slav-like set up.

If I get the chance to work here again I will look for games with this idea.

Andrew
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #15 - 10/03/06 at 15:43:28
Post Tools
GMEricPrie wrote on 10/03/06 at 15:13:10:

Then it will be obvious that I have continuously tried to enlighten our Mule on the conflicting point that his limited chess means fails to sense


Dear Eric,

   Indeed everyone may judge how clearly you express your ideas in the thread "Alternative to QG". And I'm sure there's more to come in answer to my last post there. I'm looking forward to more insults, grammatical errors and incomprehensible blabber.

                                                        All the best,
                                                              Hubert 

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #14 - 10/03/06 at 15:24:16
Post Tools
Is there any chance you will comment some of your games in the Prié in the next update? I for one would be interested to see how it works out in practice.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GMEricPrie
Full Member
***
Offline


"The most simple moves
are the less complicated"

Posts: 145
Location: France
Joined: 06/18/03
Gender: Male
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #13 - 10/03/06 at 15:13:10
Post Tools
"Souquons alors!" as we say in french.
From a recognized troll, I am always ready to trade embarassment against a good laugh  Cheesy

Is it necessary though ? Everything has been already said in the thread-Poll "Alternative to QG" where anyone can jugde by himself...

Then it will be obvious that I have continuously tried to enlighten our Mule on the conflicting point that his limited chess means fails to sense :

In my experience, transposed into my work for chesspublishing, there is no alternative to QG apart from makeshifts based on prophilaxy if White is not satisfied with an easy pleasant equality conceded to the opponent after best play from both parts.  
a3 is useful but maybe not worth the move considering the positions I end up in with it. However, it is because I have limited my opponent's options upriver that I end up in those positions I feel like a fish in water!
Restraining (the opponent's options) is actually acting.

Is there anybody apart from a person overprotected by crass jammings who cannot understand this is the base of chess?  
Then he could tell me which GM is not happy to play as Black,  after 1.d4 d5 instead of a QG but except 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 a6 Wink against a BDG, the Colle, The Veresov, The pseudo, the London, 2.c3 or 2.Nf3 Nf6 2.c3 ?

This is the stuff I force my opponents into with my extra move a3!
This is why I have a perf of 2593 on 31 FIDE games up to now.
And finally this is why the Prié is not for anyone who would have to know all the things I know on the D pawn specials and on the Slav to obtain something more substantial than a surprise from the opening.     
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #12 - 10/03/06 at 11:20:23
Post Tools
[quote author=GMEricPrie link=1159557635/0#11 date=1159872334]'Untergecker', you are pathetic. [/quote]

Dear Eric,

  Despite my repeated attempts to conduct a friendly discussion of your variation in the thread "Best alternative to QG", you have had nothing but self-indulgent gibberish and highly offensive ravings to contribute.
I do indeed fail to understand the point of 2.a3 "!", avoidance of some ...c5 variations notwithstanding, but strangely enough you have never been willing to enlighten me. True, it must be more appropriate to spout foaming insults. 
The ludicrous statements I was referring to are to be found in your NIC article available on the net. If you are not afraid of embarassment, tell me, and I will be happy to point them out to you here.

                                                            Regards,
                                                                Hubert
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GMEricPrie
Full Member
***
Offline


"The most simple moves
are the less complicated"

Posts: 145
Location: France
Joined: 06/18/03
Gender: Male
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #11 - 10/03/06 at 10:45:34
Post Tools
'Untergecker', you are pathetic. 
I urge you to stop parading your bumptious failure to understand my variation or continue your obsessive droppings elsewhere than on the forum of my chesspublishing section.

In the french B championship, to take my last FIDE tournament, all of my opponents ( Mazé 2526, Guidarelli 2437, Marzolo 2440) changed their usual first move not to confront my "ludicrous statements" and when they did not (Gozzoli 2470, Relange 2494) I just beat them...with 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.a3!    
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #10 - 10/02/06 at 15:59:49
Post Tools
Andrew Martin, you are an International Master, so, you see the game from the side of the master level at OTB. The BDG is probably playable OTB to 2300, but It's not easy, I agree.

There is another side: Correspondance (well, on rapid games and blitz, many things are ok). In correspondance between good players, the level of the game should be about equal or even higher than the level of a game between two IMs, because there is less tactical errors. GM Eric Prie for example, posted a good way to have a safe equality against the BDG, but didn't find more than equality, and he made a draw on a match against Patrik Schoupal who played the White side of the BDG. 

From my side, after more than 30 games, I remain undefeated on correspondance with the BDG (I lost once if you count the Hübsch gambit which is =/+ and I don't allow it anymore. The correspondance make the BDG ok because you get closer to perfection here, compared to OTB, so you can find hard moves to get a form of equality that would be hard to find OTB without using much time.) 

I consider the BDG as equal with the best play, I don't say it's the ultimate weapon, but it has to be respected until there is a real refutation (let's say a clear =/+ line), so I don't know why it would be inferior to the most of gambit you cited.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 248
Location: Odense
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #9 - 10/02/06 at 15:33:01
Post Tools
TopNotch wrote on 10/02/06 at 02:06:55:

By the way Andrew 1.d4 Nf6 2.g4 has a name, its called the Gibbons-Wiedenhagen Gambit (Sorry Zilbermints, this one is patented already)  Tongue



Actually it is called Gibbins-Weidenhagen Gambit.  Wink
There is a German language book from 1988 titled "Das Gibbins-Weidenhagen Gambit" authored by Niels Jørgen Jensen and Rasmus Pape. According to Jensen, he himself prefers the name "Humphrey Bogart's gambit", the title was decided by the publisher.

Apparently Bogey played the gambit in 1933.
Bronstein essayed it at least once - against Simagin in 1967 (some sources speculate 1950)

Stanley Gibbins was an English player from Derby who played the gambit by mail in the 1960ies.
Rolf Weidenhagen was a German player. His claim to fame derives from Diemer's comment in 1960 that Weidenhagen had played the Gambit.

Many of these obscure gambits have their names jumbled up in various ways. Some english language writers on such subjects (Schiller, Keene,...) don't care too much about history, names, sources, quoting other people's work etc.. They just want to push their book without breaking a sweat. So names are misspelled, analysis copied, and facts distorted.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #8 - 10/02/06 at 13:20:30
Post Tools
IMAndrewMartin wrote on 10/02/06 at 13:06:07:
Flicking through the posts and topics I can see that some players take the BDG more seriously than others and that some are even fanatical.


Here's my view :

If you play chess purely for fun and enjoyment the BDG is FINE

If you add a liking for results the BDG is DUBIOUS

If you want to play at the highest level that you possibly can the BDG can be USED INITIALLY as a training ground for tactics ( although the King's Gambit, Scotch Gambit, Evans Gambit - open games- are better ). After a certain point it MUST BE DROPPED

If you aspire to master level FORGET the BDG ALTOGETHER.


Andrew


Very well said Andrew, but I fear you are spitting in the wind here as BDG zealots are quite a stubborn lot.

Tops Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMAndrewMartin
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 51
Joined: 12/20/02
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #7 - 10/02/06 at 13:06:07
Post Tools
Flicking through the posts and topics I can see that some players take the BDG more seriously than others and that some are even fanatical.


Here's my view :

If you play chess purely for fun and enjoyment the BDG is FINE

If you add a liking for results the BDG is DUBIOUS

If you want to play at the highest level that you possibly can the BDG can be USED INITIALLY as a training ground for tactics ( although the King's Gambit, Scotch Gambit, Evans Gambit - open games- are better ). After a certain point it MUST BE DROPPED

If you aspire to master level FORGET the BDG ALTOGETHER.


Andrew
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #6 - 10/02/06 at 09:33:36
Post Tools
Actually, I know 1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. g4 as the Humphrey Bogart Gambit! 
Perhaps Blackmar and Diemer - however they were - should have converted to acting as well...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #5 - 10/02/06 at 02:06:55
Post Tools
ArKheiN wrote on 10/01/06 at 23:21:47:
Yes Andrew Martin, but the question was not if I am having fun with the BDG. But the game you gave in the last update doesn't help the black player too, who would face 6.h3 practically for sure. Giving 5..Bg4 alone doesn't help the readers to know how to face the BDG after 6.h3, and now what, 6..Bxf3, 6..Bh5, 6..Bf5, 6..other?

You can't recommand the BDG for everyone, I agree, but the article was aimed to help Black how to face it (and not to show how bad the BDG is with a bad game), and it has to be the most realistic possible.


Andrew already has an article on the web on how to meet the BDG, Eric Prie has also outlined a sound approach. Maybe Andrew couldn't find a better game to show because good players rarely employ the BDG as White, and that isn't gunna change anytime soon, I mean, why would one give your opponent odds.

Frankly I would argue that 1.d4 Nf6 2.g4 is better than the BDG as its a wing pawn that's pitched for nothing rather than a central one.  Grin

By the way Andrew 1.d4 Nf6 2.g4 has a name, its called the Gibbons-Wiedenhagen Gambit (Sorry Zilbermints, this one is patented already)  Tongue

Surely we don't need anymore updates featuring BDG's, as I think we have established that White has reasonable chances of equality once Black plays imprecisely. Push comes to shove BDGeers can always draw those pawn down endings Wink  

As Andrew says, continue to have fun with the BDG, and I suspect the use of the word 'fun' here, is code, loosely translating into something like - for those who do not take their chess development seriously by all means play the BDG. 

Topster Smiley

  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #4 - 10/01/06 at 23:21:47
Post Tools
Yes Andrew Martin, but the question was not if I am having fun with the BDG. But the game you gave in the last update doesn't help the black player too, who would face 6.h3 practically for sure. Giving 5..Bg4 alone doesn't help the readers to know how to face the BDG after 6.h3, and now what, 6..Bxf3, 6..Bh5, 6..Bf5, 6..other?

You can't recommand the BDG for everyone, I agree, but the article was aimed to help Black how to face it (and not to show how bad the BDG is with a bad game), and it has to be the most realistic possible.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #3 - 10/01/06 at 16:00:43
Post Tools
If my opponent ever wheels out 1. ...Ktg6, I will probably accept it. But 2. g4 is the real [i]fingerfehler[/i].
It should be 2.h4! threatening to win a piece!
« Last Edit: 10/01/06 at 17:37:32 by Uberdecker »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMAndrewMartin
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 51
Joined: 12/20/02
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #2 - 10/01/06 at 15:34:49
Post Tools
I read you well Arkhein; of course there was a bit of tounge in cheek there.

My own view is that you are free to play the BDG and enjoy it. There's no doubt that the opening leads to fun chess and a fair share of crushing wins for White.

But as part of a serious repertoire I cannot honestly recommend it to anyone.

Mind you, what about 1 d4 Ng6 2 g4!??!

All the Grin best, Andrew
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
Reply #1 - 09/30/06 at 13:01:38
Post Tools
Hmm, while I agree with you of course Arkhein that the accepted main lines should be covered first when attempting to prove the unsoundness of this or that variation, the BDG in general is rather obscure and we might forgive Andy for not being up to date on the "theory".
Much more perplexing to my eyes are some of the ludicrous statements made by Eric Prié in articles covering the variation that bears his own name!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Last Andy Martin's update on bdg...
09/29/06 at 19:20:35
Post Tools
Let's see IM Andy Martin's last update on the special d-pawn instead of GM Eric Prié this month.

What a poor game to say that "of course White lose" in the BDG after 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bg4!

For that, he show us a recent game from an open (best BDG games comes from corr), with unknown rated players. And White played 6.Bc4 where everybody knows (even anti-BDGer) that 6.h3 is the best here. 

And the whole game has not interest. When you know people have to pay to have the whole articles, I certainly wouldn't be happy if I was paying for that and searching how to play against the BDG...

Dear Andy, if you read me Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo