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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) a line in the trompowsky (Read 26108 times)
TopNotch
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but its always the best

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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #39 - 02/03/07 at 00:07:08
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MNb wrote on 01/09/07 at 22:18:00:
Oh oh, the battle rages on ..... We may expect a flaming reaction by Überdeker.

But I have a little question to your both. Do you really think this dispute/quarrel or whatever is worth the time you have invested?
You see, this is just internet, not the real world.


As it relates to chess moves, novelties and variations the internet is as real as it gets.

I for one am learning lots about the subtleties and nuances of these Torre/Tromp lines from this thread and still yet willing to learn more, especially about the Tromp.

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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GMEricPrie
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #38 - 01/11/07 at 14:53:50
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Empty belly has no ears  Tongue
  
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MNb
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #37 - 01/11/07 at 01:41:19
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Sure, but Honour does not fill an empty belly.  Cheesy
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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GMEricPrie
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #36 - 01/10/07 at 09:23:16
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Time is money but Honour has no price.
  
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MNb
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #35 - 01/09/07 at 22:18:00
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Oh oh, the battle rages on ..... We may expect a flaming reaction by Überdeker.

But I have a little question to your both. Do you really think this dispute/quarrel or whatever is worth the time you have invested?
You see, this is just internet, not the real world.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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GMEricPrie
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #34 - 01/09/07 at 12:01:28
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Quote:
 can someone explain to me why these tense arguments just seem to occur on the d-Pawn Specials section?  Undecided

These tense arguments occur here because of uberdecker who involves my name without incitation and pursues me on every thread.  Like this present one, with quotations above that have absolutely nothing to do with the matter of the thread.
Remember that name : uberdecker and point your finger and grievances at him : UBERDECKER.

Quote:
I can only think that Eric (being French and rarely speaking English) doesn't realise the gravity of his remarks

On the contrary...
Coarse language is an elementary psychological trick to force the dissociation of content and form. Because of the shocking outrage...their witnesses are supposed to focus their attention and interrogate themselves on what puts a usually so urbane GM  Cool into such a rage.
It also aims at constrasting sharply the positions by making me disagreeable towards the people who might feel an ounce of sympathy for uberdecker in spite of what he has done.
I only have two reproaches to make to Zidane for what he did to Mazeratti in the final of the World cup : It might have been dangerous and it left his mates in it at 10 for the (short) rest of the match.  

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 Eric Prié should have the right to refer to my "pitiful level of chess understanding", whether he is right or wrong. Incidentally, I myself agree with this definition, although the example Eric used to illustrate it was badly chosen.


The example is perfectly chosen.
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 e6 3.Nd2 h6! 3.Bxf6?! Qxf6 4.c3 as suggested by uberdecker 4...d5! 5.e4 transposing into 
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 e6 3.e4?! h6 4.Bxf6 Qxf6 5.c3 
 
On 5.Nf3 d5 is less effective because of 6.e4 and if the same plan 6...c5 7.Bb5+ Bd7 8.Bxd7+ Nxd7 9.exd5 exd5 there is nothing to take on c3 10.0-0 Be7 11.dxc5 Nxc5 12.Nb3 with a pleasant play against the opposing isolani but then Black can adapt and switch play with d6, g6 etc. because the opponent is not threatening to mobilize his f pawn anymore.
 
5...d5! the refutation of that outmoded line of the Tromp 
6.Nd2 (or 6.e5) but the damage is done anyway.
6...c5! original punctuation from chesspublishing.com d pawn specials 

This position has never been played by any of the big names cited above by uberdecker which also proves that he tends to manipulate information at his conveniency in addition with not knowing at all what he is talking about. 
The strongest 'entity' to have faced this position as White must be Klosterfrau, who lost with White to Equidistance in April in final of one of these the PAL/CSS Freestyle tournament and largely overtakes any Mickael Adams OTB in any case.
So one can imagine about me, with the stock of knowledge of a GM Over The Board and the hyper-specialized qualification of a reputed analyst, on correspondance chess situation...
 
Then 7.Nf3 a6!? (GM Hellsten) or 7...cxd4 8.exd5 exd5 8.Nxd4 Nc6 (Equidistance) 
 
I have dedicated an whole update to these Torre-Tromp subtleties. It is a bit of a pain somewhere to have to repeat myself for non subscribers who instead of enjoying this highly valuable information for free try to re-invent hot water. 

   
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #33 - 01/05/07 at 12:07:09
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Well I hope it doesn't look like I want to censor anyone's honest opinions, it is simply that coarse language is not allowed on the Forum, at all. Smiley
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #32 - 01/04/07 at 15:08:18
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Dear Tony,

  Thank you for your attention. I was not in fact asking you to modify the posts. I can understand why you removed the "unpleasant term" in question if the policy of the forum is to disallow coarse language.  However, I do think that there should be a certain freedom for expressing one's opinions, even if they are deemed offensive. Eric Prié should have the right to refer to my "pitiful level of chess understanding", whether he is right or wrong. Incidentally, I myself agree with this definition, although the example Eric used to illustrate it was badly chosen. 
 
  Just to set the record straight, I would like to add that it was not my intention to engage in "GM baiting". Our first verbal altercation occurred in a previous thread when I asked Eric a question relating to his NIC article and he apparently mistook this for defiance (the language barrier perhaps?). Since then, we have been boring the members of this forum with pointless reciprocal verbal assaults, and for this I willingly take half the blame. 
 
You are quite right to say that Eric's interest and active participation in the forum is highly commendable, and I for one, only wish it to continue.

                                                             Regards,
                                                               Hubert
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #31 - 01/04/07 at 12:52:04
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The Moderator has struck!! Shocked
I have altered several of the posts and removed any unpleasant terms or overt insults (if I have missed any just email me and I will deal with them). I can only think that Eric (being French and rarely speaking English) doesn't realise the gravity of his remarks, but anyway I will have a word with him. I really don't think the Forum is the place for 'GM baiting' anyway, and can someone explain to me why these tense arguments just seem to occur on the d-Pawn Specials section? Undecided
One thing in Eric's favour: he is one of the few ChessPublishing GMs who really bothers with the Forum (just look at the number of posts he makes), and his views are always interesting and well thought-out, even if not everyone agrees with them - please don't try to chase him away!
  
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MNb
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #30 - 01/03/07 at 20:43:44
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Dear Überdeker,

thank you for your answer. Short as it is, it is clear enough, to lead me in the right direction. What I have to do is simply find out if after 3.Nd2 there are variations, in which White can still play e4 to his benefit.
Concerning the other stuff: I wrote you before, that I have a nasty character ... I can appreciate an original insult and no, I am not referring to the words t*** and b***. I would indeed not mind, if a moderated would censor these.
Anyway, speaking for myself, I don't take internet too seriously. It's not real life. It is far more important what my family, friends and colleagues think of me than eg GM Prié. In fact we don't know each other and it is very unlikely we will ever meet. Just my 2 SRD opinion.

Ch.gr.
MNb
« Last Edit: 01/04/07 at 20:17:28 by MNb »  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Uberdecker
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #29 - 01/03/07 at 19:24:02
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Dear Holbox,

  You are probably right. Perhaps I am paying too much attention to a matter that does not deserve it. Still, the Chesspub's policy has always been not to allow foul and abusive language on the forum, and I find it unseemly that a member of the management team should be allowed to get away with it.

                                                 Regards,
                                                       UD

P.S. Your use of the term "kind" is correct but it should have been followed by "of"
  
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Holbox
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #28 - 01/03/07 at 14:21:45
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Quote:
Kind thoughts??


I'm sorry, because my english is really bad. I usually use "kind" instead of "type of", probably this is not a correct use for the word "kind". But anyway i feel you are too much exalted. 




  

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Uberdecker
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #27 - 01/03/07 at 12:44:54
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Kind thoughts??

"Anyone who plays 3. e4 h6 ; 4. Bxf6 or 3. Ktd2 h6 ; 4. Bxf6 or even suggests this to a player wishing to avoid the Torre has a 'pitiful level of chess understanding'."

I do not call this kind. I call it aggressive, closed-minded and above all completely laughable. This 'pitiful level' has been shared by Hodgson, Adams, Speelman, Salov, Gelfand, Kortchnoï etc etc.

Eric likes to reach the same old Torre/London positions in 100% of his games and he is even willing to sacrifice a tempo to this end (his 2. a3 lines).
That's his choice, and I'm sure this approach bears its fruit in terms of results. One cannot criticise him for this. But apparently he is outraged by the fact that not everyone wishes to share this "comfort blanket" with him and that some players are looking for rich, diverse and challenging positions.

Are the rest of you really not going to take offense from his behaviour until he lashes at you yourselves for daring to discuss these matters critically, instead of blindly drinking the grandmaster's every word ?
I repeat : this thread requires the attention of a moderator.  
  
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Holbox
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #26 - 01/03/07 at 10:36:53
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Quote:
On the verge of ending this update, it is important to make a lengthy digression about the so called "spirit of the Trompowsky". 
Indeed, asking for the 2...e6 Tromp line we are examining, an enthusiastic subscriber wrote to me a couple of weeks ago in these terms: "Like GM Peter Wells in his book I firmly believe that if 3. e4 is unplayable against the Tromp, the Tromp as a whole will be a lot less "scary" for Black." 
Well, this is not my experience and for me playing the Tromp is a result of a slow and long process. I started chess with 1.e4, then moved on to the 1.Nf3-1.d4 complex in 'Kramnikian' style, then back to 1.e4 with some sharp, up-to-date, heavy opening preparation after which I became an IM without any training guidance. Taking up 1...d5 against 1.d4 or 1.Nf3 I acquired the necessary maturity to become a GM some years later. Then I went back to 1.Nf3 (which is less compromising) when, for certain other professional reasons I had a lot less time to devote to chess. 
Next, I went into the magic World of 'd-Pawn specials' o) afterwards with 1.d4 2.Nf3 3.Bg5 and afterwards 1.d4 2.c3 3.Bg5, which is less energy consuming than anything else in terms of getting something solid 'to get your teeth into' out of the opening against good opposition. 
As it was with reversed colours, the kind of stuff I had played most of my career, which is also playable without any specific opening preparation! Finally the Tromp which in my opinion gives less room for Black to adapt then interposing any 2nd white move. Thus my approach to the system is different than those players who have adopted it for its surprise value at the beginning, more compact theory nowadays, or its 'scary' aspects. As far as I am concerned, the Tromp is just something entirely natural! like 1.Nf3 d5 2. g3 (or 2.d3, 2.b3) 2...Bg4 with which I have had excellent results for 15 years. Classical chess recommends moving the knights before bishops but it is only because the knights find their development place (Nf3 in case of 1. e4 in 90% of the cases) more easily than the bishops! 
There are many examples where the evolution of theory has proved the relativity of this principle. Particularly in the case of 1.d4... I find 2.Bg5 even quite logical, when, against a knight on f6, g5 will most certainly be the square exerting the biggest pressure on the opposing position, and is immediately justified in case of 2...e6 ...! 
Under these conditions, I am sorry but I just cannot consider a move like 3.e4, sacrificing material (the pair of bishops) and forcing White to play dynamically at the very beginning of the game, to be good. At least is it not the way I like to play chess, putting all my eggs into one basket on move 3. In addition, this goes against the predominance of static factors in the modern game that the evolution of theory relays. So I compassionately understand the people who have been put off from playing the Tromp after 2...e6 3.e4?! very well. 
In conclusion, There is no Tromp spirit. It is a delusion in the world of a unique opening! With its subtleties and its completely different ways of handling the position according to Black's second move, but where the general rules of Chess do still apply. The deeper you get to know it, the more you will understand the considerable links it entertains with the 1... d5 (1...c6 2...d5) sphere more than anything else...


After reading this digression I have become a new subscriber of this section. This are the kind thoughts I would like to find everywhere in a chessbook. I like people, like Eric, who talks with "knowledge of cause" ( I mean based in his own experiences ). Keep up the good work.

I would like to comment something on "this goes against the predominance of static factors in the modern game that the evolution of theory relays": I'm just a beginner in chess, and might be that I haven't get the correct sense of the statement but I have read anywhere that GM's evaluate a position based on the dynamic possibilities firstly, and only then they make the evalutation based on static factors. Is this going against your statement of "predominance of static factors in the modern game"?

Thx
   



 
  

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Uberdecker
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #25 - 01/02/07 at 14:17:11
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[quote author=MNb link=1166772129/15#19 date=1167599855][quote author=Uberdeker link=1166772129/0#14 date=1167568747]

P.S. Frendo - I can't see how one could find fault with your very sensible enquiry. Furthermore, it is hardly a matter of theory evolving, but of the capriciousness of one individual. Anyway, this thread  clearly requires the attention of a moderator.[/quote]

Yeah, but you could have formulated this a bit more friendly ... (look, who is writing). At the other hand - you guys are both quite entertaining. [/quote]

Dear MNb,

   Do you really find such low-level scatological ravings to be entertaining ? I have voluntarily avoided gratifying Eric's latest base and baseless insults with an answer -despite the great temptation-, but I am rather perplexed by the fact that a member of the ChessPub management team can vent his rage in the most vulgar and offensive manner on the forum and that no-one has even asked him not to continue. Ordinary contributers are regularly reprimanded for much less. 

[quote]
But could somebody tell me, why 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 e6 3.Nd2 should be more precise than 3.c3 or 3.e3 ?[/quote]

It cannot be called more precise because it aims at a different type of game. White intends to play e4 (cf. my previous posts).

                                                                         Regards,
                                                                            UD
  
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