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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) a line in the trompowsky (Read 26119 times)
Uberdecker
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #24 - 01/02/07 at 13:49:55
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[quote author=sssthepro link=1166772129/15#20 date=1167634647]Can someone explain some ideas of Benoni line to me? Thanks[/quote]

White should probably answer 4. ...d6 with 5. Ktc3, not giving Black another chance for an annoying ...Qb6. Then Be2, Ktf3, 0-0, Ktd2, a4 and Ktc4 is the general plan. White can sidestep Black's ...Ktxd5 ideas by answering ...Be7 with Bf4. And he shouldn't give up his -d5 strongpoint unless there is a specific reason.
  
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sssthepro
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #23 - 01/02/07 at 07:46:54
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1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 e6 3.e4 c5 4.d5 d6 5.Nf3 Be7 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.dxe6 fxe6 8.Bxd7 Nxd7 9.0-0

Why does White have to take the pawn on e6? After that, it seems that Black has a strong center and more space as well. If this line is bad, what would be a good line? 

This line is in Fritz 8's opening book, so it might be a bit outdated.

I would love to hear some comments
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #22 - 01/02/07 at 01:15:49
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Can someone explain some ideas of Benoni line to me? Thanks


You'll probably have better luck if you actually post a variation or two that you're having problems with.
  
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sssthepro
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #21 - 01/02/07 at 00:01:02
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oh yah, Mamedyarov, Shakhriyar played the pawn sacrifice before. Although he lost, he was winning at some point.
  
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #20 - 01/01/07 at 06:57:27
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Thanks all. I thank everyone for their comments. They let me understand about this opening more. However, I did quite a lot of research and my own analysis in the ...Qb6 variation, and I seem to like the position. At least, it suits me. However, I am not really sure why White wants to achieve the benoni position. I seems to me that Black is completely better. I used my computer to check as well. I know that computers are not very good at looking at positional problems, but it gave -0.73, which is quite high. Can someone explain some ideas of Benoni line to me? Thanks
  
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MNb
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #19 - 12/31/06 at 21:17:35
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1166772129/0#14 date=1167568747]

P.S. Frendo - I can't see how one could find fault with your very sensible enquiry. Furthermore, it is hardly a matter of theory evolving, but of the capriciousness of one individual. Anyway, this thread  clearly requires the attention of a moderator.[/quote]

Yeah, but you could have formulated this a bit more friendly ... (look, who is writing). At the other hand - you guys are both quite entertaining.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 e6 3.e4 c5 (h6) 4.d5 Qb6 5.Nc3 Qxb2 6.Bd2 Nxe4 7.Nxe4 Qe5 8.Bd3 exd5 is another unclear variation. Black has other 4th move options (eg Qa5+), so I tend to agree, that White's should be more modest.
A little research showed me, that White very often plays all the moves c3, e3, Nd2 and Nf3. I am not so sure either, if x.cxd4 is to be preferred above x.exd4. Of course it is according to the rule "recapture towards the centre". But then what? Like some variations of the 2...Nc6 3.Bb5 variation of the Sicilian, the pawn structure is basically symmetrical. I do not see, how Black is stopped from playing ...d5. So x.exd4, creating some imbalance, might be more ambitious.

It looks reasonable to me to postpone x.Nf3 a bit. If Black plays an early ...d5, then White can play a favourable Stonewall (f2-f4), as the bad bishop is already outside the pawn chain. So we get something like 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 e6 3.e3 h6 4.Bh4 c5 5.c3 Be7 6.Nd2 b6 7.Ngf3 (maybe 7.Qe2 first, to prevent ...Ba6). White must also postpone castling a bit, in case Black plays ...g5 and ...Nh5. With about 45% White's results have not exactly been encouraging, but maybe his resources are not exhausted. An intriguing example:

Nikolic,Z (2420) - Horvath,T (2440) [A47]
Smederevska Palanka, 1984
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 [2.Bg5 e6 3.e3 h6 4.Bh4 c5 5.c3 Be7 6.Nd2 b6 7.Ngf3] 2...e6 3.Bg5 h6 4.Bh4 c5 5.e3 Be7 6.c3 b6 7.Nbd2 Bb7 8.Bd3 0–0 9.Qe2 cxd4 10.exd4 d6 11.Bxf6 Bxf6 12.Ne4 Be7 13.g4 Re8 14.g5 d5 15.Ng3 hxg5 16.h4 gxh4 17.Nh5 Nd7 18.Rg1 Bf6 19.Ne5 Kf8 20.Bb5 Bxe5 21.Bxd7 Bf6 22.Bxe8 Kxe8 23.Qf3 Ke7 24.Nxf6 gxf6 25.Qf4 Rc8 26.Qxh4 Qh8 27.Qxh8 Rxh8 28.Kd2 Rh2 29.Ke3 Rh3+ 30.Rg3 Rh4 31.Rag1 e5 32.Rg4 Rh3+ 33.Kd2 Ba6 34.dxe5 fxe5 35.Ra4 Bd3 36.Rxa7+ Ke6 37.Rg3 Rxg3 38.fxg3 Be4 39.Rb7 f5 40.Rxb6+ Kf7 1–0

But could somebody tell me, why 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 e6 3.Nd2 should be more precise than 3.c3 or 3.e3 ?
  

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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #18 - 12/31/06 at 19:48:43
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I would imagine that most players of 2...e6 would be very happy to see 3.e4...

I see the Trompowsky the way I see the Catalan and 2.c3 Sicilian - it is not easy for Black to get good counterplay without taking undo risks. After 3.e4 h6 Black gets good counterchances without compromising his position too much. After something like 3.Nd2 or 3.e3 though, it would seem harder to get a dynamcic game...
  
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GMEricPrie
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #17 - 12/31/06 at 16:13:04
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On the verge of ending this update, it is important to make a lengthy digression about the so called "spirit of the Trompowsky".
Indeed, asking for the 2...e6 Tromp line we are examining, an enthusiastic subscriber wrote to me a couple of weeks ago in these terms: "Like GM Peter Wells in his book I firmly believe that if 3. e4 is unplayable against the Tromp, the Tromp as a whole will be a lot less "scary" for Black."
Well, this is not my experience and for me playing the Tromp is a result of a slow and long process. I started chess with 1.e4, then moved on to the 1.Nf3-1.d4 complex in 'Kramnikian' style, then back to 1.e4 with some sharp, up-to-date, heavy opening preparation after which I became an IM without any training guidance. Taking up 1...d5 against 1.d4 or 1.Nf3 I acquired the necessary maturity to become a GM some years later. Then I went back to 1.Nf3 (which is less compromising) when, for certain other professional reasons I had a lot less time to devote to chess.
Next, I went into the magic World of 'd-Pawn specials' o) afterwards with 1.d4 2.Nf3 3.Bg5 and afterwards 1.d4 2.c3 3.Bg5, which is less energy consuming than anything else in terms of getting something solid 'to get your teeth into' out of the opening against good opposition.
As it was with reversed colours, the kind of stuff I had played most of my career, which is also playable without any specific opening preparation! Finally the Tromp which in my opinion gives less room for Black to adapt then interposing any 2nd white move. Thus my approach to the system is different than those players who have adopted it for its surprise value at the beginning, more compact theory nowadays, or its 'scary' aspects. As far as I am concerned, the Tromp is just something entirely natural! like 1.Nf3 d5 2. g3 (or 2.d3, 2.b3) 2...Bg4 with which I have had excellent results for 15 years. Classical chess recommends moving the knights before bishops but it is only because the knights find their development place (Nf3 in case of 1. e4 in 90% of the cases) more easily than the bishops!
There are many examples where the evolution of theory has proved the relativity of this principle. Particularly in the case of 1.d4... I find 2.Bg5 even quite logical, when, against a knight on f6, g5 will most certainly be the square exerting the biggest pressure on the opposing position, and is immediately justified in case of 2...e6 ...! 
Under these conditions, I am sorry but I just cannot consider a move like 3.e4, sacrificing material (the pair of bishops) and forcing White to play dynamically at the very beginning of the game, to be good. At least is it not the way I like to play chess, putting all my eggs into one basket on move 3. In addition, this goes against the predominance of static factors in the modern game that the evolution of theory relays. So I compassionately understand the people who have been put off from playing the Tromp after 2...e6 3.e4?! very well. 
In conclusion, There is no Tromp spirit. It is a delusion in the world of a unique opening! With its subtleties and its completely different ways of handling the position according to Black's second move, but where the general rules of Chess do still apply. The deeper you get to know it, the more you will understand the considerable links it entertains with the 1... d5 (1...c6 2...d5) sphere more than anything else...


Straight from the Horse's mouth quoted from that Walton-Buckley game and possibly of some interest on this thread...
But I do not play the Tromp anymore for reasons that will be confessed only to the wealthy ( 18 Euros a year...) happy few subscribers of the "d pawn specials" Cool
  
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GMEricPrie
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #16 - 12/31/06 at 15:52:06
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If you don't like the tedious Torre, I suggest 3. Ktd2, answering 3. ...h6 with 4. Bxf6 Qxf6 ; 5. c3 followed by e4 as your best bet.  

This is wrong as illustrated by Walton-Buckley (Karttunen-Hellsten) in the section. 

Once and for all, and not embarassed at all, I have written that I found the position resulting from 1.d4 Nf6 2.a3?! e6 ( 2...g6!) 3.Nf3 (3.c4) or more relevant in the NIC's "Prie attack" 1.d4 e6 2.a3 Nf6 3.Nf3 c5 pleasant or playable for White just to emphasize that the combination d4, a3 naturally goes well  against a natural development of Black's king bishop but serves nothing against a fianchetto.
As far as further analytical developments on this position in the annals of theory are concerned, I do not care about 3. or 4.c4 since I would play 4.c3! in any case, keeping my strong pawn on d4, as usual.

 
« Last Edit: 01/04/07 at 12:42:28 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #15 - 12/31/06 at 14:19:17
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Uberderker your recommendation is a sensible but perhaps at the level he's playing at and his own current chess level the gambit option would be a good choice.  The gambit is probably dubious, but I played the Morra Gambit with tremendous success in my early high school years and we know that gambit isn't sound.  Now I don't actually know what his competition is or his own chess skill level, but I'd go with the option that suited my style more.  Anyway, here's a few moves from a game that shows White getting some interesting play with the gambit:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 e6 3.e4 c5 4.d5 Qb6 5.Nc3 Qxb2 6.Bd2 Qb6 7.Bc4 d6 8.f4 Be7 9.Nf3 0-0 10.0-0 Qd8 11.Rb1 exd5 12.Nxd5 Nxd5 13.Bxd5 Nc6 14.f5 Qc7 15.Bc3.

Of course this isn't forced but White should remember to develop his pieces before attacking and remember the f5 idea that shut out the light-squared bishop.  In this game Black, a master, decided he needed to take radical measures with 15...Bf6.  For complete annotations I'm afraid you will have to find a way to be a subscriber, but maybe you can develop your own theory!  If this position doesn't feel right to you go with one of the alternatives!  Smiley
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #14 - 12/31/06 at 12:39:07
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[quote author=sssthepro link=1166772129/0#13 date=1167536627]Is it that White will get a Benoni without the pawn on c4?[/quote]

Well that is what White is hoping for, and if Black complies (4. ...d6 ; 5. Ktc3 or 4. ...h6 ; 5. Bf4), he will get a very promising position. But it is all far from being that simple. Black can target White's weakness on -b2 with 4. ...Qb6 when White doesn't have a comfortable way of defending it and the soundness of the gambit Frendo mentionned 5. Ktc3 Qxb2 ; 6. Bd2 is open to debate. 
If you don't like the tedious Torre, I suggest 3. Ktd2, answering 3. ...h6 with 4. Bxf6 Qxf6 ; 5. c3 followed by e4 as your best bet.

P.S. Frendo - I can't see how one could find fault with your very sensible enquiry. Furthermore, it is hardly a matter of theory evolving, but of the capriciousness of one individual. Anyway, this thread  clearly requires the attention of a moderator.
  
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #13 - 12/31/06 at 03:43:47
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Sorry, I am not a subscriber (I do not have enough money  Cry, and my parents donot allow. What a das world I live in!) Can I just know someof the lines after 4.d5? I dont really like torre Attack, because it does not suit me. Can I know just a few lines and the standard ideas? Is it that White will get a Benoni without the pawn on c4? Thanks
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #12 - 12/30/06 at 19:14:06
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Well I certainly didn't mean to spark off another conversation like this.  I am a subscriber and I should have just looked up to see what the latest recommendation is.  Theory moves on!  It seems the White openings in "d-pawn specials" are taking something of a beating, but I'm sure there are plenty of club players who don't mind Black getting equality if he knows all of the nuances.  The Torre transposition is still decent if you have some patience.
  
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #11 - 12/30/06 at 16:48:38
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[quote author=GMEricPrie link=1166772129/0#10 date=1167496401]
I tend to reserve the reasons for the evolution of my thoughts and my explanations to subscribers, rather than here. [/quote]

Nice, very distinguished. Also rather handy when faced with embarrassing questions : "pay first and then I will endeavour to convince you that your money is well spent". Anyway, since my Trompowsky days are behind me, and none of the other D-pawn deviations can pretend to seek an opening advantage, this section is only of interest to me for Black. And here keeping up to date on the latest wrinkles in theory is certainly not necessary. So much to Eric's comfort and relief, I will remain a non-subscriber.
« Last Edit: 01/04/07 at 12:40:09 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: a line in the trompowsky
Reply #10 - 12/30/06 at 16:33:21
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Yes I changed my mind after my game against IM Christophe Philippe commented in the section almost 2 years ago...
3...h6! 4.Bh4 c5 5.e3 cxd4!
Quote:
Ensuring a pawn majority in the centre which is the main concern for White in the Torre attack. Black should not allow him to consolidate his d pawn with c2-c3 which would permit an important recapture towards the centre in case of ...c5xd4.

5.c3 the move I would like to play 5...cxd4! 6.cxd4 Qb6 7.Qc2 Nc6 8.e3 d5 9.a3 Bd7 10.Ne2 Rc8 11.Nc3 just in time...11.Be7 12.Bd3 0-0 13.0-0 Na5 Black has no problems.  

I tend to reserve the reasons for the evolution of my thoughts and my explanations to subscribers, rather than here.
« Last Edit: 01/04/07 at 12:37:19 by GMTonyKosten »  
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