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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) BDG - Something else against  the Euwe Defenc (Read 14354 times)
Gambit
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe Defenc
Reply #16 - 12/30/07 at 02:24:57
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flaviddude wrote on 09/01/07 at 11:11:48:
Note I am showing a transposition from The French Defence. You can play this line without knowing any other BDG theory.

After 1. e2–e4 e7–e6 2. d2–d4 d7–d5 3. Nb1–c3 Ng8–f6 4. Bc1–g5 d5xe4 5. f2–f3, what about 5. … c7–c5  ?
A 6. d4xc5 Qd8–a5 
B 6. d4–d5 e6xd5 7. Bg5xf6 Qd8xf6 8. Nc3xd5 Qf6–h4+ 9. g2–g3 Qh4–d8 or just 8...Qf6-d8

Black seems get good play on the dark squares here.


I am assuming you mean 1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5 de4 5 f3 c5 . No need to use long algebraic notation, the shorter version is much easier to read.

To answer your question, check the chesslive.de database for relevant games. You should find the necessary games with this line there.
  
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe Defenc
Reply #15 - 12/30/07 at 00:18:50
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flaviddude wrote on 09/01/07 at 11:11:48:
Note I am showing a transposition from The French Defence. You can play this line without knowing any other BDG theory.

After 1. e2–e4 e7–e6 2. d2–d4 d7–d5 3. Nb1–c3 Ng8–f6 4. Bc1–g5 d5xe4 5. f2–f3, what about 5. … c7–c5  ?
A 6. d4xc5 Qd8–a5 
B 6. d4–d5 e6xd5 7. Bg5xf6 Qd8xf6 8. Nc3xd5 Qf6–h4+ 9. g2–g3 Qh4–d8 or just 8...Qf6-d8

Black seems get good play on the dark squares here.
  
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe Defenc
Reply #14 - 09/11/07 at 23:39:43
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1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.f3 exf3 6.Nxf3 Be7 7.Qd2 h6

A) 8.Be3 Ng4 (Nc6 and it is not wise to castle kingside here, as 9.Bd3 invites Nb4) 9.Bf4 Bb4 (Nc6 10.Nb5 is primitive, but efficient) 10.Bd3 (White has other options, but this feels best to me) Nc6 11.0-0? Nxd4 12.Rae1 Nxf3+ 13.Rxf3 c6 and White has enough for one pawn, not for two. I have already mentioned 11.0-0-0 Nf6 12.Rhf1 Nd5. LDZ is probably still right that White must castle kingside: 11.Rd1 Nf6 12.0-0 Nd5 allows White to play an interesting queen sac with 13.Nxd5 Bxd2 14.Nxc7+ Ke7 15.Rxd2.

B) 8.Bf4 Bb4 9.Bc4 Ne4 favours Black and 9.Bd3 Nc6 10.Rd1 Nd5 looks like a bad version of A. Is it? Just 11.0-0 as Nxf4 12.Qxf4 might be good enough.

C) 8.Bh4?! Ne4 9.Nxe4 Bxh4+ 10.g3 Be7 was also played in Drill-Dontsjenko, Griesheim 2003. I don't have faith Leisebein's 11.Bg2. Does White expect Black to castle queenside?!

D) 8.Bxf6?! Bxf6 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.0-0-0 Nb6 11.Nxf6+ Qxf6 12.Be2 Bd7 13.Rhf1 Rf8 14.Kb1 Qe7 15.c4 0-0-0 16.Qa5 Kb8 17.c5 Nc8 18.Ne5 Marktwardt-Lagland, corr 1968. Imo 18...Be8 19.c6 Bxc6 20.Nxc6+ bxc6 leaves Black with good prospects for a succesfull defence, eg 21.Rd3 Qg5 22.Qb4+ Nb6 23.Rg3 Qd5.

A few other notes on this particular moveorder.
As mentioned in another thread a long time ago Black can decline with 5...e3. Then 6.Bc4 Be7 7.Nge2 0-0 8.Qd3 is unclear.
Another important option is 5...Bb4 at once. The normal 6.fxe4 c5 was played in Pommerel-Legemaat, corr NEDch K32 NBC 2002. The game ended as an eventless draw. So more ambitious is 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3, which is an obscure sideline of the obscure Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit.
Delving deeper into obscurity: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.a3 Bxc3+ (Be7 and is White's extra move a3 useful?) 6.bxc3 dxe4 transposes, but Black may try 6...h6 instead.
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.f3 does not seem to work though because of e5.

I will add this to my otb repertoire. Now I only have to find someone playing 4...dxe4.

Question: is there a way to download those games from chesslive.de, besides manually?
  
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe Defenc
Reply #13 - 09/05/07 at 23:55:36
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My 1994 Index to Blackmar-Diemer Gambit World gives the game (after 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 ef3 5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Qd2 h6 8 Bh4?!) Nienhuis-Emil Joseph Diemer, Amsterdam, 1956. That game continued 8...g5! 9 Bg3 Nd5 10 a3 a6   11 Bc4? Nb6  12 Bb3 Nc6 13 Qf2, 0-1/36.

The chesslive.de database gives 23 games with 7 Qd2 h6, but only 2 with         8 Bxf6.  One is from 1972, the other, from 2001. I will check other BDG literature on the subject.
  
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe De
Reply #12 - 09/04/07 at 23:38:07
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ArKheiN wrote on 09/04/07 at 11:19:44:


1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 e6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Qd2 h6 isn't played that much but maybe Black are afraid to weakening the kingside. More practice is needed.

8.Bf4 or 8.Be3 might be logical but 8.Bh4 deserve attention too despite the fact that the next 2 games might not be very convincing:

[Event "DESC SZ011 email"]
[Site "DESC email"]
[Date "2000.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Leisebein,Peter"]
[Black "Osthus,Reinhard"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D00"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 dxe4 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 e6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Qd2 h6 8.Bh4 Nd5 
9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.Ne4 Nd7 11.Bd3 c5 12.0-0 0-0 13.c4 N5f6 14.Rae1 Rd8 15.Nxf6+ Nxf6 16.dxc5 Qxc5+ 
17.Kh1 Bd7 18.Ne5 Qe7 19.Qe3 Be8 20.Rf3 b6 21.Ref1 Qc5 22.Qe1 Rac8 23.b4 Qd4 24.Rxf6 gxf6 
25.Qg3+ Kf8 26.Rxf6 Ke7 27.Rf3 f6 28.Qg7+ Kd6 29.Qf8+ Kc7 30.Qxf6 Bc6 31.Rf1 Bb7 32.h3 Rg8 
33.Bg6 Qd6 34.c5 bxc5 35.bxc5 Qd5 36.Rf2 a6 37.Rb2 Kb8 38.Qf4 Ka8 39.c6 Rxc6 40.Nxc6 Bxc6 
41.Rd2 e5 42.Qf6 Qb5 43.Bd3 Qb7 44.Bf1 Qc8 45.Kg1 Bb7 46.Qxe5 Rd8 47.Rb2 Qc1 48.Rf2 Rc8 
49.Kh2 Qc7 50.Qxc7 Rxc7 51.g4 Ka7 52.Rf6 Rc2+ 53.Kg3 Rxa2 54.Rxh6 Ra3+ 55.Kh4 Ra4 56.Kh5 Rf4 
57.Be2 a5 58.g5 a4 59.Rf6 Rb4 60.Rf5 Re4 61.Bf3 Re3 62.Bg4 a3 63.g6 Rd3 64.g7 Bd5 
65.Rxd5 Rxd5+ 66.Kh4 Rd8 67.Be6  1-0

[Event "BDG theme1 fin email"]
[Site "home.t-online.de"]
[Date "2001.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Leisebein,Peter"]
[Black "Ivanov,Vladimir Aleksandro"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "D00"]
8.Bh4 Ne4 
9.Nxe4 Bxh4+ 10.g3 Be7 11.Bg2 Nd7 12.Qc3 Nf6 13.Ne5 Nd5 14.Qb3 0-0 15.0-0 c6 16.Rae1 Qb6 
17.Qxb6 axb6 18.a3 b5 19.c3 g5 20.Nd2 Kg7 21.Re2 f6 22.Nd3 Rd8 23.Ne4 b6 24.g4 h5 
25.gxh5 Rh8 26.Rfe1 Ra7 27.Ng3 Bd8 28.Rxe6 Bxe6 29.Rxe6 Nf4 30.Nf5+ Kf7 31.Nxf4 gxf4 32.Rxc6 Rxh5 
33.Bd5+ Kg6 34.Be4 Rxf5 35.Rd6 Re7 36.Bxf5+ Kxf5 37.Rxd8 Re2 38.h4 Rxb2 39.h5 f3 40.h6 Rg2+ 
41.Kf1 Rh2 42.Rh8  1/2



First Arkhein that is an exellent posting. I shall confine myself to commenting on the line

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 e6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Qd2 h6 

In addition white can play 8. Bxf6 I have only found two moves on my database with this move which continued 8..Bxf6 Ne4 Clearly 8.....gxf6 needs to be examined Also after 8...Bxf6 I believe that white should play 0-0-0. I am very busy at the moment but will post on this line in due course.
  
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe Defenc
Reply #11 - 09/04/07 at 11:19:44
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1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 e6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.a3 is the move if White doesn't want to play the Zilbermints gambit, and doesn't want to let ..Nb4.



1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 e6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Qd2 h6 isn't played that much but maybe Black are afraid to weakening the kingside. More practice is needed.

8.Bf4 or 8.Be3 might be logical but 8.Bh4 deserve attention too despite the fact that the next 2 games might not be very convincing:

[Event "DESC SZ011 email"]
[Site "DESC email"]
[Date "2000.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Leisebein,Peter"]
[Black "Osthus,Reinhard"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D00"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 dxe4 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 e6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Qd2 h6 8.Bh4 Nd5 
9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.Ne4 Nd7 11.Bd3 c5 12.0-0 0-0 13.c4 N5f6 14.Rae1 Rd8 15.Nxf6+ Nxf6 16.dxc5 Qxc5+ 
17.Kh1 Bd7 18.Ne5 Qe7 19.Qe3 Be8 20.Rf3 b6 21.Ref1 Qc5 22.Qe1 Rac8 23.b4 Qd4 24.Rxf6 gxf6 
25.Qg3+ Kf8 26.Rxf6 Ke7 27.Rf3 f6 28.Qg7+ Kd6 29.Qf8+ Kc7 30.Qxf6 Bc6 31.Rf1 Bb7 32.h3 Rg8 
33.Bg6 Qd6 34.c5 bxc5 35.bxc5 Qd5 36.Rf2 a6 37.Rb2 Kb8 38.Qf4 Ka8 39.c6 Rxc6 40.Nxc6 Bxc6 
41.Rd2 e5 42.Qf6 Qb5 43.Bd3 Qb7 44.Bf1 Qc8 45.Kg1 Bb7 46.Qxe5 Rd8 47.Rb2 Qc1 48.Rf2 Rc8 
49.Kh2 Qc7 50.Qxc7 Rxc7 51.g4 Ka7 52.Rf6 Rc2+ 53.Kg3 Rxa2 54.Rxh6 Ra3+ 55.Kh4 Ra4 56.Kh5 Rf4 
57.Be2 a5 58.g5 a4 59.Rf6 Rb4 60.Rf5 Re4 61.Bf3 Re3 62.Bg4 a3 63.g6 Rd3 64.g7 Bd5 
65.Rxd5 Rxd5+ 66.Kh4 Rd8 67.Be6  1-0

[Event "BDG theme1 fin email"]
[Site "home.t-online.de"]
[Date "2001.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Leisebein,Peter"]
[Black "Ivanov,Vladimir Aleksandro"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "D00"]
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 e6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Qd2 h6 8.Bh4 Ne4 
9.Nxe4 Bxh4+ 10.g3 Be7 11.Bg2 Nd7 12.Qc3 Nf6 13.Ne5 Nd5 14.Qb3 0-0 15.0-0 c6 16.Rae1 Qb6 
17.Qxb6 axb6 18.a3 b5 19.c3 g5 20.Nd2 Kg7 21.Re2 f6 22.Nd3 Rd8 23.Ne4 b6 24.g4 h5 
25.gxh5 Rh8 26.Rfe1 Ra7 27.Ng3 Bd8 28.Rxe6 Bxe6 29.Rxe6 Nf4 30.Nf5+ Kf7 31.Nxf4 gxf4 32.Rxc6 Rxh5 
33.Bd5+ Kg6 34.Be4 Rxf5 35.Rd6 Re7 36.Bxf5+ Kxf5 37.Rxd8 Re2 38.h4 Rxb2 39.h5 f3 40.h6 Rg2+ 
41.Kf1 Rh2 42.Rh8  1/2

  
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe De
Reply #10 - 09/04/07 at 08:33:48
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Gambit wrote on 09/02/07 at 18:45:46:
I think you missed the point, David. MNb says 7...h6, not 6...h6.  In this case, the correct move order is 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 ef3 5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 h6

Oh, and MNb needs to have more faith in the Zilbermints Gambit. MNb should try playing it in online blitz games, and correspondence chess to understand what the key motifs are.


Hi, I gave 7. Qd2 not Bd3. I suggest that analysis of variations after 7. Bd3 belongs in the other thread

However 7. Qd2 h6 is worth examining. I shall make another posting about this.
  
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe Defenc
Reply #9 - 09/04/07 at 01:00:49
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The line you give presupposes that White has to Castle Queenside. I don't see why that is necessary. K-side Castling is just as good.
  
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe Defenc
Reply #8 - 09/03/07 at 21:14:43
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The debate on the Zilbermints Gambit belongs in another thread - there are more than enough. Please post your games there. Only then I will comment.
7.Qd2 h6 8.Be3 Nc6 9.0-0-0 Bd7 and 8...Ng4 9.Bf4 Bb4 10.Bd3 Nc6 11.0-0-0 Nf6 12.Rhf1 Nd5 and I have doubts about White's compensation.
  
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe Defenc
Reply #7 - 09/03/07 at 08:44:03
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MNb,

You just said the Exchange Sub-Variation in the Zilbermints Gambit is good for Black?! Far from it!

After 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 ef3 5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 Nc6 8 00 Nxd4 9 Kh1 Nxf3 10 Qxf3 h6 is good for White.

(A) 11 Bxf6 Bxf6 12 Ne4

(A1) 11...gf6 leaves the King in the center... not a pleasant idea.

(B) 11 Bh4 pressuring the Nf6, but allowing 11...g5?!

(C) 11 Be3 with possible sacrifices on h6.

I prefer B and C as White does not trade pieces. The threat is Rd1, Ne4. As the Nf6 is pinned, White exerts a lot of pressure on the f-file. He has good compensation for the pawns. I will post more games in the morning.
  
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe Defenc
Reply #6 - 09/02/07 at 21:13:12
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I hate blitz, both online and otb.
And playing it in long time (5 days a move) corr games? I am not suicidal, thank you. 9...Nxf3 10.Qxf3 h6 being one idea.
But I might try 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.f3 exf3 6.Nxf3 Be7 7.Qd2 indeed otb (Classical Time Control). I have looked at it today and perhaps 7...h6 8.Be3 is good enough. Black cannot castle anymore (0-0 9.Bxh6 wins) and playing with the king in the centre is no joy either.
  
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe Defenc
Reply #5 - 09/02/07 at 18:45:46
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I think you missed the point, David. MNb says 7...h6, not 6...h6.  In this case, the correct move order is 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 ef3 5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 h6

Oh, and MNb needs to have more faith in the Zilbermints Gambit. MNb should try playing it in online blitz games, and correspondence chess to understand what the key motifs are.
  
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe De
Reply #4 - 09/02/07 at 06:41:49
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MNb wrote on 09/01/07 at 21:44:05:
I would be more interested in your analysis of 7...h6 (recommended by Schiller and Benjamin) and 7...Nc6. These answers have prevented me from playing this version of the BDG. Neither do I have confidence in the Zilbermints Gambit 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.0-0.


First I presume that you mean 

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf 5.Nxf3 e6 6. Bg5 h6 7. Bxf6 Qf6

8. Bb5 (B7 is no better) c6 9. 0-0 cxb 9. Ne5 this line scored over 90% on my database. The exceptions were blitz games.

Oh and Schiller played it himself and got splattered.

7...gxf6 is probably better. However there are only a few games with this move. Decide whether tou like the positions that arise.

This question was well woth raising.

 
  
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe Defenc
Reply #3 - 09/02/07 at 01:23:17
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Yeah, but no relief .....
  
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Re: BDG - Something else against  the Euwe Defenc
Reply #2 - 09/01/07 at 22:24:10
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O, ye of little faith! Seek and ye shall find.
  
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