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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to beat the BDG (Read 129661 times)
MNb
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #124 - 02/01/08 at 23:28:48
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Markovich wrote on 02/01/08 at 15:18:01:

That no one knows who Ziegler was, no matter! It is enough that he has adorned a perfectly ordinary move with his name!

That explains why BDG-initiates quite often don't know how to spell his name ...  Cheesy
  
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woofwoof
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #123 - 02/01/08 at 17:18:04
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Markovich wrote on 02/01/08 at 15:18:01:
  Ad maiorem gambiti gloriam, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum.

Grin Grin Grin Grin

Very humorous post. But this verse in particular really cracked me up! Thanks. Had a long day & really in need to destress.
  
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Markovich
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #122 - 02/01/08 at 15:18:01
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mefisto6 wrote on 02/01/08 at 14:46:29:
MNb wrote on 01/31/08 at 03:07:54:
This has been debated extensively in other threads. Please do a search on Ziegler, Zeigler and/or Milner-Barry.

These BDG discussions are very hard to follow for non-BDG-fanatics.
Ziegler Defence, Langeheinecke Defense, Lemberger Counter-Gambit, Euwe defence, the Hubsch Gambit, Milner-Barry,...
It seems like every move has its own name.
Is it not easier to name a line something like 'the e6 defence'?


Because this would disturb the Mystical Harmony of the Third Orb of BDG Arcana, my son, if thee but knew. Lest this Most Sacred Harmony be broken, those of The Initiate never refer to BDG subsystems by simple indications of what they are! And thrice must be challenged to mortal caissic combat those who do.   

Further, of course, it would suggest that The Gambit is less mighty than the Spanish or the Queen's Gambit, whose teeming subsystems are referenced by name. That no one knows who Ziegler was, no matter! It is enough that he has adorned a perfectly ordinary move with his name! That Euwe laughed the one time he ever faced The Gambit, no matter! The world champion's name was thus captured for all eternity for use by The Initiate.  Ad maiorem gambiti gloriam, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
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mefisto6
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #121 - 02/01/08 at 14:46:29
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MNb wrote on 01/31/08 at 03:07:54:
This has been debated extensively in other threads. Please do a search on Ziegler, Zeigler and/or Milner-Barry.

These BDG discussions are very hard to follow for non-BDG-fanatics.
Ziegler Defence, Langeheinecke Defense, Lemberger Counter-Gambit, Euwe defence, the Hubsch Gambit, Milner-Barry,...
It seems like every move has its own name.
Is it not easier to name a line something like 'the e6 defence'?
  
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Carl
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #120 - 02/01/08 at 00:52:34
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drkodos wrote on 01/31/08 at 23:49:20:
Carl wrote on 01/31/08 at 23:25:08:


How do you beat the BDG?  Smiley



Who, me?

Simply by playing 2. ....e6, or if I am feeling more generous, I pretend like I am going to play their game and then veer off into the Lemberger, which produces a practically forced winning line for Black when Black plays correctly.*

There is a solid reason (beyond whimsy or fashion) why it is not played by people with 2600+ ELO, but after reading the fumferry of the BDG delegates I now realize it must be that the Super GM's want to give their opponents (as Black) a sporting chance.





*Do a web search and some diligent homework and you can find the line yourself because I'm planning on remaining aloof and quasi-arrogant with my rhetoric, which is all I'm offering since empirical evidence means nothing to cultists.




Sure, anyone who knows what the BDG is*,
and have something to contribute to the subject of the thread.**


*Do a web search.
**The fact that 120 posts in this thread has only reached this far, kind of ridicules the rediculers by now.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #119 - 02/01/08 at 00:18:30
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A practically winning line for Black in the Lemberger?

If 3.Nxe4 is not good enough, 3.Nge2 probably is. The game Schoupal - GM Prié in the forum was a Lemberger with 3.Nge2.

About 2600+, I already explained somes possibles reasons. The BDG is ok but not dangerous enough to play for a win, when a draw is not as easy to get compared to non-gambit theory.

2..e6 is well enough if you are a French player, but it's not an attempt to refute the BDG. And as White I have no problem to play in a "normal" way against it.
  
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drkodos
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #118 - 01/31/08 at 23:49:20
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Carl wrote on 01/31/08 at 23:25:08:


How do you beat the BDG?  Smiley



Who, me?

Simply by playing 2. ....e6, or if I am feeling more generous, I pretend like I am going to play their game and then veer off into the Lemberger, which produces a practically forced winning line for Black when Black plays correctly.*

There is a solid reason (beyond whimsy or fashion) why it is not played by people with 2600+ ELO, but after reading the fumferry of the BDG delegates I now realize it must be that the Super GM's want to give their opponents (as Black) a sporting chance.





*Do a web search and some diligent homework and you can find the line yourself because I'm planning on remaining aloof and quasi-arrogant with my rhetoric, which is all I'm offering since empirical evidence means nothing to cultists.
  
I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #117 - 01/31/08 at 23:25:08
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Meat wrote on 01/31/08 at 15:58:38:
So... bring on the games!  Wink


So? You go ahead.
How do you beat the BDG?  Smiley
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #116 - 01/31/08 at 15:58:38
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So... bring on the games!  Wink
  
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MNb
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #115 - 01/31/08 at 03:07:54
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This has been debated extensively in other threads. Please do a search on Ziegler, Zeigler and/or Milner-Barry.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #114 - 01/31/08 at 02:27:37
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Meat wrote on 01/30/08 at 18:32:39:
ArKheiN wrote on 01/30/08 at 10:09:21:
I don't trust 5.Bf4 against 4..c6. But in the Trompowsky move order, the Bf4 is quite good.

To Tracke, after 

1d4 d5 2e4 dxe4 3Nc3 Nf6 4f3 c6 5.Bc4 exf3 6Nxf3 Bf5 70-0 e6 8Ng5  Bg6 9Ne2 Na6, I don't remember the lines you gave but for the moment I would play 10.Nf4 and you?


And then what after 10...Nc7 ? What is white's plan here? How will he maintain an initiative against simple developing moves by black?


Simple developing moves?!
Maybe you should try 9... Bd6! with the idea 10. Nf4 Bxf4 11. Bxf4 0-0 and Nbd7 then!? -/+
But on the other hand; don´t expect 8. Ng5 too often.
Or 5.Bc4 for that matter.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #113 - 01/30/08 at 18:55:59
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Something like 19.Be2 with the idea to cover the g4 and h5 square and eventually pushing the g and h pawn, while giving the possibility to play c4 might be interesting.
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #112 - 01/30/08 at 18:32:39
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ArKheiN wrote on 01/30/08 at 10:09:21:
I don't trust 5.Bf4 against 4..c6. But in the Trompowsky move order, the Bf4 is quite good.

To Tracke, after 

1d4 d5 2e4 dxe4 3Nc3 Nf6 4f3 c6 5.Bc4 exf3 6Nxf3 Bf5 70-0 e6 8Ng5  Bg6 9Ne2 Na6, I don't remember the lines you gave but for the moment I would play 10.Nf4 and you?


And then what after 10...Nc7 ? What is white's plan here? How will he maintain an initiative against simple developing moves by black?
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #111 - 01/30/08 at 16:27:44
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Quote:
To Matemax: If you want to show the statistics, you should learn to uses them properly. 
Please be my teacher - I live the Ghandi-way: "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." 

The most important point of the given statistics is, that the opening is practically neglected by strong players (they will have their reasons...).


You don't need to put statistics to show that no GM play that, everyone knows that, and I explained the reasons. And you put Black's score from masters as Black, but we have no information about the score from White, and how strong or weak the opposition was...

Quote:
Quote:
to me, the BDG is a dynamical equality 
to me not


It's words against words, but why don't you give somes lines that show us White having 0 compensation for the pawn? Don't say soemthing like"because of 4..Nxf3 because I will say "5.Nxf3 and what?"

Quote:
Quote:
Under 2200, the Black side does not defend really good, you can win with a strong attack before 30 moves. 
Do you really believe in that?


Judging from my own level and my own experience against <2200 with the BDG OTB, yes I maintain what I say.

Quote:
Quote:
BDG is fun, it isn't losing 
Hmm...my evaluation after f3 would be "plus minus vertical" - white is to fight for a draw


First, White is fighting to win. If things goes bad, White is fighting to draw. "Plus minus vertical"? Maybe, it's not impossible, but I don't know a line which is clearly and objectively "small advantage to Black". Here again, I say = where you say =/+, so we have to use concrete lines to have a picture of what you say, and there we can discuss about different interpretations.

Quote:
Quote:
At your level, are you able to maintain a slight advantage? 
Yes


Are you a Master ? The black side never manage to equalize against you?

Quote:
Quote:
even a 1600 could crush a 1800 with it 
Of course - but he can also crush him with 1.h4 or 1.a3. They will both make a lot of mistakes and last one usually loses.


A 1600 have little chance to beat a 1800 with 1.h4 or 1.a3 because he is much weaker that his opponent, and because theses openings are not dangerous and no opening traps. The BDG is dangerous enough at that level, and there are many traps where a 1800 can fall in quickly.

Quote:
Quote:
The rebel attitude. 
I like this one - nice. I am with you!   


As I see the BDG stands for fun, practical chances, a certain chess attidute - but it doesnt stand for theoretically soundness. I like the theoretical discussions ("Is an opening sound", "Does it give an advantage",...) and not to walk into personal impressions ("Oh its fun", "I am a BDG-fighter"). I really hope you enjoy this opening and have a good time at the board - its your decision and I have respect for it.


I agree for the first part of what you say here, but OTB. But when I play it on corr, I don't wait to be lucky, I know that my opponent has a database and books, might be a good player and might use a strong engine to beat me. I use the correspondance as an analytical tool, where I say that it is not the ultimate weapon,  White has a dynamical equality but no more. 

Iam very curious about how you will refute the BDG, and curious to know what you play as White to keep an opening advantage and how you manage to convert it into a winning advantage, and what is your real name in the FIDE's top 100.
  
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Matemax
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #110 - 01/30/08 at 12:18:04
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Quote:
To Matemax: If you want to show the statistics, you should learn to uses them properly.

Please be my teacher - I live the Ghandi-way: "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Wink

The most important point of the given statistics is, that the opening is practically neglected by strong players (they will have their reasons...).

Quote:
to me, the BDG is a dynamical equality

to me not

Quote:
Under 2200, the Black side does not defend really good, you can win with a strong attack before 30 moves.

Do you really believe in that?

Quote:
The BDG is practically unknown

Come on - you know thats not true...

Quote:
BDG is fun, it isn't losing

Hmm...my evaluation after f3 would be "plus minus vertical" - white is to fight for a draw

Quote:
At your level, are you able to maintain a slight advantage?

Yes

Quote:
even a 1600 could crush a 1800 with it

Of course - but he can also crush him with 1.h4 or 1.a3. They will both make a lot of mistakes and last one usually loses.

Quote:
The rebel attitude.

I like this one - nice. I am with you!  Smiley


As I see the BDG stands for fun, practical chances, a certain chess attidute - but it doesnt stand for theoretically soundness. I like the theoretical discussions ("Is an opening sound", "Does it give an advantage",...) and not to walk into personal impressions ("Oh its fun", "I am a BDG-fighter"). I really hope you enjoy this opening and have a good time at the board - its your decision and I have respect for it.
  
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