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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to beat the BDG (Read 129697 times)
Carl
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #154 - 02/06/08 at 03:15:55
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flaviddude wrote on 02/05/08 at 18:08:10:
Carl wrote on 02/04/08 at 23:24:19:
DoubledPawns wrote on 02/03/08 at 05:58:17:
What about 5...e5, returning the pawn to put off the BDG exponent? He might gain an edge in the endgame (after 6.de5), but the shock of facing a counter-gambit is sure to put him off his stride.


This move has 100% for White in my base.
Almost all BDG advocates knows that only 3... e5 is OK.

[Event "corr"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1996.??.??"]
[White "Warzecha, Helmut"]
[Black "Zilbermints, Lev"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e5 6. Nxe5 Bd6 7. Bg5 Be7 8. Bc4 O-O 9. O-O Nbd7 10. Nxf7 Rxf7 11. Bxf7+ Kxf7 12. Nd5 1-0


Diemer found the antidote to 5...e5. 

It is as follows

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nf3 e5? 6.dxe Qxd1 7.Kxd1 Nd7
8. Nd5 you can work out the analysis for yourselves but white usually wins two pawns with a sound position. The move 7.Kd1 is so counter intuitive that diemer did not find it until he had been playing the gambit for some years.



That was the day the "Elbert Counter Gambit" was invented.

[Event "?"]
[Site "Lindau"]
[Date "1949.??.??"]
[White "Diemer"]
[Black "Elbert"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 e5 5. dxe5 Qxd1+ 6. Kxd1 Nfd7 7. Nd5 Kd8 8. Bg5+ f6 9. exf6 gxf6 10. Nxf6 Be7 11. Nxe4 Nc6 12. Nh3 Nde5 13. Nf4 Bf5 14. Bxe7+ Kxe7 15. Bd3 Rad8 16. Re1 Kf7 17. Ng5+ Kf6 18. h4 Bxd3 19. cxd3 Nxd3 20. Re6+ Kf5 21. Nxd3 Rxd3+ 22. Ke2 Rhd8 23. g4+ Kf4 24. Rf6+ Kg3 25. Ne4+ Kg2 26. g5 Ne5 27. Rc1 Nxf3 28. Rc2 R8d4 29. Rf4 c5 30. Rg4+ Kh2 31. Rg3 c4 32. Rg4 b5 33. h5 Nxg5 34. Kf1+ Rd2 35. Rxd2+ 1-0

Little Elbert ran into his room and slamed the door. He did never play chess again.
  
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Carl
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #153 - 02/06/08 at 03:08:05
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ArKheiN wrote on 02/05/08 at 07:26:05:
Wow Carl, where did you find that game?

In fact, 8.Qf3 is my favourite move, I am playing that move myself everytime, 8.Bg2 is the main alternative. In fact, for a moment I tought I had found a refutation of 8.Qf3 and I wanted to place it, but Rosenstielke surprised me with a strong improvement, where I could still get the draw if I am not wrong, but I wanted to continue in a risky way and then he played strong moves again. But I have to say that when I played the games of that event, I did not have much time to play them and I lost on time in somes good positions. Against Leisebein, it was not the same event.




"For access to the secret manuscripts, my son, you need the holy key to the sanctuary crypt deep down in der darkest Deutschland", or however the clowns avoids the subject in this thread.

I posted it with respect, to illustrate how pitty the big mouthed 
Rybka-confident kids in here sounds with their quick evaluations, as 
even those of us who have studied this gambit for years, and actually 
knows what we are talking about, might get lost in the wilderness.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #152 - 02/05/08 at 21:26:23
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Yes, Diemer introduced 3.Nc3 instead of Blackmar's 3.f3 because 3.f3 is refuted by 3..e5 but 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 e5 is bad (David I think you meant 4..e5? instead of 5..e5?) because of 5.dxe5! Qxd1+ 6.Kxd1 Nfd7 7.Nd5 +/-, a line that many people falled in as Black, even a French IM in a semi-rapid tournament got that bad position with Black against me: 2 pawns down without compensations for him out of the opening.
  
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flaviddude
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #151 - 02/05/08 at 18:08:10
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Carl wrote on 02/04/08 at 23:24:19:
DoubledPawns wrote on 02/03/08 at 05:58:17:
What about 5...e5, returning the pawn to put off the BDG exponent? He might gain an edge in the endgame (after 6.de5), but the shock of facing a counter-gambit is sure to put him off his stride.


This move has 100% for White in my base.
Almost all BDG advocates knows that only 3... e5 is OK.

[Event "corr"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1996.??.??"]
[White "Warzecha, Helmut"]
[Black "Zilbermints, Lev"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e5 6. Nxe5 Bd6 7. Bg5 Be7 8. Bc4 O-O 9. O-O Nbd7 10. Nxf7 Rxf7 11. Bxf7+ Kxf7 12. Nd5 1-0


Diemer found the antidote to 5...e5. 

It is as follows

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nf3 e5? 6.dxe Qxd1 7.Kxd1 Nd7
8. Nd5 you can work out the analysis for yourselves but white usually wins two pawns with a sound position. The move 7.Kd1 is so counter intuitive that diemer did not find it until he had been playing the gambit for some years.

  
I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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ArKheiN
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #150 - 02/05/08 at 07:26:05
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Wow Carl, where did you find that game?

In fact, 8.Qf3 is my favourite move, I am playing that move myself everytime, 8.Bg2 is the main alternative. In fact, for a moment I tought I had found a refutation of 8.Qf3 and I wanted to place it, but Rosenstielke surprised me with a strong improvement, where I could still get the draw if I am not wrong, but I wanted to continue in a risky way and then he played strong moves again. But I have to say that when I played the games of that event, I did not have much time to play them and I lost on time in somes good positions. Against Leisebein, it was not the same event.

  
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TopNotch
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #149 - 02/05/08 at 01:08:02
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Carl wrote on 02/04/08 at 23:51:36:

[Event "corr"]
[Date "2006.10.10"]
[ECO "D00"]
[White "Rosenstielke, Magnus"]
[Black "ArKheiN"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bf5 6. Ne5 e6 7. g4 Bg6 8. Qf3 Qxd4 9. Bb5+ Nbd7 10. Nxd7 Nxd7 11. Be3 Qe5 12. O-O-O Rd8 13. Bd4 Qg5+ 14. Kb1 c6 15. h4 Qe7 16. h5 Bxc2+ 17. Kxc2 cxb5 18. Nxb5 f6 19. g5 1-0


Yup, hari kari is certainly a lot more manly than the chicken options, and quicker too. 

Toppy  Cheesy

« Last Edit: 02/05/08 at 21:26:55 by TopNotch »  
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Carl
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #148 - 02/04/08 at 23:51:36
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ArKheiN wrote on 02/04/08 at 12:53:29:

[Event Corr"]
[Date "2006.09.05"]
[ECO "A45"]
[White "Leisebein, Peter"]
[Black "ArKheiN"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. f3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. Nc3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bf5 6. Ne5 e6 7. g4 Bg6 8. Bg2 c6 9. h4 Bb4 10. 0-0 Nbd7 11. Qe2 Nxe5 12. dxe5 Bc5+ 13. Kh1 Nd5 14. Bg5 Nxc3 15. bxc3 Qc7 16. h5 h6 17. Be3 Qxe5 18. hxg6 Qxe3 19. Qxe3 Bxe3 20. Rxf7 0-0-0 21. Rxg7 Rhg8 22. Rxg8 Rxg8 23. Be4 Kd7 24. Rf1 Rg7 25. Kg2 Ke7 26. c4 Bg5 27. c5 Ke8 28. a4 a5 29. Rf3 Be7 30. c3 Bg5 31. Kf1 Be7 32. Ke2 Bf8 33. Bd3   1/2-1/2


Any constructive comment is welcome.


8.Qf3 also works sometimes.

[Event "corr"]
[Date "2006.10.10"]
[ECO "D00"]
[White "Rosenstielke, Magnus"]
[Black "ArKheiN"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bf5 6. Ne5 e6 7. g4 Bg6 8. Qf3 Qxd4 9. Bb5+ Nbd7 10. Nxd7 Nxd7 11. Be3 Qe5 12. O-O-O Rd8 13. Bd4 Qg5+ 14. Kb1 c6 15. h4 Qe7 16. h5 Bxc2+ 17. Kxc2 cxb5 18. Nxb5 f6 19. g5 1-0
  
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Carl
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #147 - 02/04/08 at 23:24:19
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DoubledPawns wrote on 02/03/08 at 05:58:17:
What about 5...e5, returning the pawn to put off the BDG exponent? He might gain an edge in the endgame (after 6.de5), but the shock of facing a counter-gambit is sure to put him off his stride.


This move has 100% for White in my base.
Almost all BDG advocates knows that only 3... e5 is OK.

[Event "corr"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1996.??.??"]
[White "Warzecha, Helmut"]
[Black "Zilbermints, Lev"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e5 6. Nxe5 Bd6 7. Bg5 Be7 8. Bc4 O-O 9. O-O Nbd7 10. Nxf7 Rxf7 11. Bxf7+ Kxf7 12. Nd5 1-0
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #146 - 02/04/08 at 23:21:16
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ArKheiN wrote on 02/04/08 at 12:53:29:
GM Tony Kosten, I have 21 games of BDG expert Leisebein in that line, 11 wins and 0 loss. I myself tryed to get the advantage in the Black side of that variation, but I did not manage to win.

Thanks for those, the quality is much higher than the OTB games I have, I only had a quick look but my Rybka seems very happy with your moves.
You were definitely close to winning in one of the games, and drew easily in the other which suggest that Black is very OK in this variation, even if it is inferior.
I will have a closer look when I have some free time.
  
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Carl
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #145 - 02/04/08 at 23:15:27
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[quote author=kylemeister link=1189668712/135#144  problems, 

In the other line, it seems odd to observe that White has no obvious problems; it would be more to the point to say that Black has no obvious problems, while White's obvious problem is his missing pawn.    

[/quote]

It´s not odd if the observation counters the statement that 6... Be6 is a problem to 6.Ne5
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #144 - 02/04/08 at 22:57:01
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Carl wrote on 02/04/08 at 20:58:14:
ArKheiN wrote on 02/02/08 at 21:19:40:
Indeed, 6.Ne5 against 5..c6 is interesting but a move like 6..Nbd7 immediately challenging the knight, or even 6..Be6 as kylemeister pointed out, should be fine for Black.


Well, Kylemeister and ArKheiN, I would have thought 6... Bf5 was in analogy with the Caro-Kann.

Against 6... Be6 I would probably trust the Gegner-Tiemann line, and go 7.Be2 Nbd7 8.Nd3 with the Knight looking at f4-e6, and no obvious problems, even though the exchange line 7.Bc4 Bxc4 8.Nxc4 looks perfectly =

As for 6... Nbd7, the exchange isn´t bad for White if you clear the rank with 7.Bf4 Nxe5 8.dxe5.
7.Qf3 might be the more Diemerish though.

I still think 6... Bf5 is the objectively best move, and therefor 5... c6 not better than 5... Bf5 (=), and then; this 6.Ne5 is only a "minor" variation. The old and new main lines, 6.Bc4 and 6.Bd3, might be even better!?



I was referring to the line 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 de 4. Nxe4 Nd7 5. Nf3 Ngf6 6. Nxf6+ Nxf6 7. Ne5, where 7...Be6 and 7...Nd7 are considered better than 7...Bf5.  Doesn't necessarily mean that ...Bf5 is inferior in the BDG position, of course.

If you think 6...Be6 7. Bc4 Bxc4 8. Nxc4 looks equal, I don't know what to say ...except that such a "generic" exchange can't be of help to White when he's a pawn down, doesn't have much of a lead in development, and is facing an opponent whose position basically resembles a rock.  In the other line, it seems odd to observe that White has no obvious problems; it would be more to the point to say that Black has no obvious problems, while White's obvious problem is his missing pawn.    

  
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Carl
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #143 - 02/04/08 at 21:32:03
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Gambit wrote on 02/03/08 at 04:38:59:
Well, apart from the line 5 Nxf3 c6 6 Ne5 Nbd7 6 Nc4 there is the move
6 Qf3 which appears to be good for White. I mean, the database I checked had no games with 7 Nc4, but plenty with 7 Qf3.

Just mentioning it.



In combination we have an interesting Ryder-style gambit;
7.Qf3 Qb6 8.Nc4!? if 8... Qxd4
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #142 - 02/04/08 at 20:58:14
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ArKheiN wrote on 02/02/08 at 21:19:40:
Indeed, 6.Ne5 against 5..c6 is interesting but a move like 6..Nbd7 immediately challenging the knight, or even 6..Be6 as kylemeister pointed out, should be fine for Black.


Well, Kylemeister and ArKheiN, I would have thought 6... Bf5 was in analogy with the Caro-Kann.

Against 6... Be6 I would probably trust the Gegner-Tiemann line, and go 7.Be2 Nbd7 8.Nd3 with the Knight looking at f4-e6, and no obvious problems, even though the exchange line 7.Bc4 Bxc4 8.Nxc4 looks perfectly =

As for 6... Nbd7, the exchange isn´t bad for White if you clear the rank with 7.Bf4 Nxe5 8.dxe5.
7.Qf3 might be the more Diemerish though.

I still think 6... Bf5 is the objectively best move, and therefor 5... c6 not better than 5... Bf5 (=), and then; this 6.Ne5 is only a "minor" variation. The old and new main lines, 6.Bc4 and 6.Bd3, might be even better!?

  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #141 - 02/04/08 at 12:53:29
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GM Tony Kosten, I have 21 games of BDG expert Leisebein in that line, 11 wins and 0 loss. I myself tryed to get the advantage in the Black side of that variation, but I did not manage to win but improvements might be possible. Here are two of my games against him:

[Event Corr"]
[Date "2006.09.04"]
[ECO "A45"]
[White "Leisebein, Peter"]
[Black "ArKheiN"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[
1. d4 Nf6 2. f3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. Nc3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bh5 7. g4 Bg6 8. Ne5 c6 9. Bg2 e6 10. h4 Bb4 11. 0-0 Nbd7 12. Qe2 Nxe5 13. dxe5 Nd5 14. h5 Bc5+ 15. Kh2 Qh4+ 16. Bh3 f5 17. Nxd5 exd5 18. gxf5 Bxh5 19. Qg2 Qe4 20. Bd2 Qxg2+ 21. Bxg2 Be2 22. Rfe1 Bg4 23. Bh3 Bxh3 24. Kxh3 g6 25. f6 Kf7 26. Be3 Bxe3 27. Rxe3 Rhe8 28. Kg4 d4 29. Re4 Rad8 30. Kf4 a5 31. a3 h5 32. Rg1 a4 33. Rd1 c5 34. Rd3 Rh8 35. Kg5 Rde8 36. c3 h4 37. Kg4 h3 38. Rxh3 Rxh3 39. Kxh3 d3 40. Re3 c4 41. Re1 d2 42. Rd1 Rxe5 43. Rxd2 Kxf6 44. Rd6+ Re6 45. Rd7 Rb6 46. Rd2 Kf5 47. Kg3 Rb5 48. Rf2+ Kg5 49. Rh2 Rd5 50. Kf3 Kf5 51. Rh7 Rb5 52. Rh2 b6 53. Rd2 g5 54. Rd4 Rxb2 55. Rxc4 b5 56. Rc5+ Kg6 57. c4 bxc4 58. Rxc4   1/2-1/2


[Event Corr"]
[Date "2006.09.05"]
[ECO "A45"]
[White "Leisebein, Peter"]
[Black "ArKheiN"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. f3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. Nc3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bf5 6. Ne5 e6 7. g4 Bg6 8. Bg2 c6 9. h4 Bb4 10. 0-0 Nbd7 11. Qe2 Nxe5 12. dxe5 Bc5+ 13. Kh1 Nd5 14. Bg5 Nxc3 15. bxc3 Qc7 16. h5 h6 17. Be3 Qxe5 18. hxg6 Qxe3 19. Qxe3 Bxe3 20. Rxf7 0-0-0 21. Rxg7 Rhg8 22. Rxg8 Rxg8 23. Be4 Kd7 24. Rf1 Rg7 25. Kg2 Ke7 26. c4 Bg5 27. c5 Ke8 28. a4 a5 29. Rf3 Be7 30. c3 Bg5 31. Kf1 Be7 32. Ke2 Bf8 33. Bd3   1/2-1/2


Any constructive comment is welcome.
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #140 - 02/04/08 at 12:39:12
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Some of you are good at joking about the BDG associated to Zilbermints ("Gambit" in the forum). Better at joking than at refuting a so bad opening. Who will do the best next joke? Oh of course 2.e4 and 4.f3 are jokes too but I am waiting your concretes lines to laugh with you.

PS: please, every BDG players don't think the same way as Zilbermints does, so a bit of respect for the "serious" theoricians of the BDG could be nice. If someone say: "The BDG is refuted" I won't laugh at his face, but I will say: really? Let me show your line, I will see if I can improve, and then we can discuss about the position".
  
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