ArKheiN wrote on 02/08/08 at 10:50:52:

I think Black can stick to the pawn, at least for a while, after 13...b6. True, White may not be lost yet, but the only player with winning chances is Black. A line leading to such a position I call refuted indeed. Just my 2 SRD, nobody should trust an 1800-Patzer on his judgment.

@Überdeker:
No, Gedult is not the Dutch word for patience. Gedult is the German word for patience, which should be explained by the fact that David Gedult was from the Alsace. The Dutch word is Geduld. I would have expected that someone named Decker (and not Dekker) should know the difference! 
Be comforted by the thought that the irony is not lost.

DoubledPawns wrote on 02/08/08 at 06:42:31:



Now we´re beeing creative. Gedults idea with 5... a6 was to "misplace" the White Bishop after 6.Bd3 g6. However if Whites plan is to rip it up with an h4-attack, as in the previous post, I´m not sure it matters.

[Event "?"]
[Site "Paris"]
[Date "1975.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Boyd, EW."]
[Black "Gedult, David"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "D00"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 a6 6. Bd3 (6. Bc4 b5 7. Bb3 c5 8. a4 c4 9. Ba2 b4 10. Ne2 Be6 11. Nf4 Bd5 12. Nxd5 Qxd5 13. Qe2 b3 14. cxb3 cxb3 15. Bb1 e6 16. Bg5 h6 17. Bh4 Bb4+ 18. Kf1 Nbd7 19. Bd3 Rc8 20. h3 O-O 21. Kg1 Nh5 22. Kh2 Nf4 23. Qd1 Nxd3 24. Qxd3 Rc2 25. Rac1 Ne5 26. Qf1 Nxf3+ 27. Qxf3 Qxf3 28. Rxc2 Bd6+ 29. Kg1 bxc2 {0-1 Wjeschnjekowski,G-Gedult,D/Paris 1975 (29)}) 6... g6 7. O-O Nc6 8. Qe1 Bg7 (8... Nxd4 9. Nxd4 Qxd4+ 10. Be3 Qd8 11. Rd1 Bd7 12. Bg5 Bg7 13. Qh4 O-O 14. Ne4 Nxe4 15. Bxe4 (15. Bxe7 Bd4+ 16. Kh1 Nf2+ 17. Rxf2 Bxf2 18. Qf6 Bd4 19. Qg5 h6 20. Qd5 Qxe7 21. Bxg6 Bc6 22. Bxf7+ Qxf7 23. Qxd4 Qf1+ 24. Qg1 Bxg2# {0-1 Coeytaux,P-Gedult,D/Paris 1975 (24)}) 15... Qc8 16. Bxb7 Qxb7 17. Rxd7 Qxb2 18. Bxe7 Rfe8 19. Bf6 Qb6+ 20. Bd4 Bxd4+ 21. Qxd4 Qxd4+ 22. Rxd4 Rad8 23. Rc4 Re7 24. h3 Rd2 25. Rf2 Re1+ 26. Rf1 Ree2 27. Rg4 h5 28. Rg3 Rxc2 {0-1 Willmart,A-Gedult,D/Paris 1975 (28)}) 9. Qh4 h6 10. Qg3 Nb4 11. Bxg6 fxg6 12. Qxg6+ Kf8 13. Ne5 Qe8 14. Ne4 Nxc2 15. Nxf6 exf6 16. Rxf6+ Bxf6 17. Qxf6+ Kg8 18. Bxh6 Rxh6 19. Qxh6 Nxa1 20. Qg5+ Kf8 21. Qf6+ Kg8 22. Qg5+ Kh7 23. Qh4+ Kg7 24. Qg5+ 1/2-1/2


Worth noticing is that Gedult himself when facing it played 6.Bc4 b5 
7.Bb3 anyway, and things may transpose, just as 6.a4 probably would, to more common lines where these pawn moves are inserted doesn´t make much differens.

[Event "?"]
[Site "Paris"]
[Date "1975.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Gedult, David"]
[Black "Malerte, L."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 a6 6. Bc4 b5 7. Bb3 
Bb7 8.Ne5 e6 9. Qe2 Qe7 10. Bg5 h6 11. Bh4 g5 12. Bg3 Bg7 13. O-O Nbd7 14. Rae1 c5 15. Bxe6 Qxe6 16. Nxd7 Kxd7 17. Qf2 Qc6 18. d5 Qb6 19. Be5 Rhe8 20. Qf5+ Kd8 21. Bxf6+ Bxf6 22. Rxe8+ Kxe8 23. Qxf6 Qxf6 24. Rxf6 b4 25. Rxh6 Ke7 26. Na4 1-0


A downside with 5... a6 might be that after 6.Bg5 e6 it is a normal 
Euwe defence, known for being passive already, and with a tempo
committed to a6, in which case 5... e6 must be more accurate. 

Interesting, but is it independent?
Doesn´t it also in a way give up the initiative to choose which main defence, with an a6, to transpose to?

To MNb: after 4... c5 5.d5 exf3 6.Nxf3 a6 7.Bg5 e6, I don't know if 8.Qe2 is the best move but that move is logical: pressure on e6 and allowing to castle long or Rd1 with pressure on the center. A sample line might be 8.Qe2 Be7 9.0.0.0 Nxd5 10.Bxe7 Qxe7 11.Nxd5 exd5 12.Qxe7+ Kxd7 13.Rxd5 where White should regain the pawn soon in an equal position (maybe not the position White wanted with the BDG but that is not the question, it was just to show that here, White have at least the equality, so 6..a6 7.Bg5 e6 is not a refutation or a research for an advantage until you have an improvement for Black in that sample line.).

Yes, 5..a6 is really rare but interesting, useful against Bc4 by gaining tempii with b5 and Bb7 and even b4, and a sort of waiting move to let White showing his plan where Black can adapt his setup while Black's knight can now go to c6 without allowing the pin Bb5. I don't know exactly what should be the best setup for White now, but at first I see 4 ideas: 6.Bc4, 6.Bd3 (doesn't seem very convincing), 6.Bg5 with the idea to play in the same manner as after 5..e6 if Black play 7..e6 or 7..Nbd7, and 6.Ne5 where Doubledpawns give 6..Be6 but after 7.Qf3, if you play 7..c6, after 8.Be3 followed by castle long should be respectable for White (full development where Black's setup is quite strange here).

Carl wrote on 02/07/08 at 03:16:36:

I am sorry, call me conservative, but if a developing gambit like the BDG must be saved by a move like 8.Qe2 (blocking Bf1 that is) I get suspicious. Maybe refutation is a strong word, but if an opening after 8 moves leads to a Black advantage, albeit a small one, I call that opening refuted.
And I do claim a definite edge for Black after 8.Qe2 Be7 - what should White play? Certainly not 9.0-0-0 Nxd5 and White has the choice between another pawn and simplification.
So I advise the BDG-eer to chose Gedult's line indeed.

Concerning 4...c5 5.d5 exf3 6.Qxf3 - nobody has mentioned yet that this is the socalled Rojahn-Variation of the Albin's. This Norwegian correspondence player used to practice x...f6 and y...Qxf6 in this opening.
Concerning 4...c5 5.d5 exf3 6.Nxf3 g6/Bg7/Nbd7 etcetera I would like to remark that this setup is also known in the Albin's. Just an example is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.g3 Be6 6.Nbd2 Qd7 7.Bg2 0-0-0 8.0-0 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.a3 Bh3 (so 5...Be6, 5...Bg4 or 5...Bf5 does not make any difference anymore) 11.Bxh3 Qxh3 12.b4 Ng4 13.Bb2 h5 14.b5 Nce5 15.Qc2 h4 16.Qf5+ Kb8 17.Qg5 Bc5 0-1, De Bruijn-MNb, corr 1995.
With colours reversed, an extra tempo for White and the bishop on f4 there are some nuances. But I have a feeling that White must be very OK in the BDG-version.

Back to the Albin's for the last time. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.a3 (5.e3 is not a blunder yet) f6 6.exf6 Nxf6 is clearly better for White. The BDG-player still has to prove that his extra tempo matters.

ArKheiN wrote on 02/07/08 at 13:06:19:

Not 100%, but Black has a lot of factors in his favour and I played it a couple of times against my computer and won easily both times.

Quote:


Yes, sure, the opposite-colour bishop ending after 24 Qg5 is very difficult for White.

Quote:


Isn't the d-pawn en prise? Or are you talking about another position?

Maybe, Matemax, but I believe that Gallagher's recommation is busted now. And when I say that, it's all about concrete analysis, not about words. 

Carl: I read again and again your sentence and really, I don't see that as a friendly message, just one sentence but with somes rudes ideas inside. You seems to like the BDG too, so I don't understand your personnal attack, I even don't know who you are, only 17 messages,  and only into the BDG threads, but it appears that you, you did somes researchs and know my first name and surname. So, how should I interpret your message if it is not an attack? 

Thank you GM Tony for your efforts. Yes it is possible that I really missed the winning plan, are you sure that your plan lead to victory after the best play by White? In fact when I played that whole line with 13..Nd5, White's position seemed very suspect to me and I knew that I should have at least a draw by repetition or something like this in somes lines, or try to win in others lines. The following line is quite complex and there is probably still something to discover in this line, but after 17.exf6 instead of Leisebein's move, if I really want to win I can maybe continue like this: 17..Bd6+ 18.Kg1 Qxh3 19.Qxe6+ Ne7 20.Qxd6 Qxg4+ 21.Kh2 gxf6! (the winning attempt) 22.Qxf6 Qxh5+ 23.Kg3 0-0-0. So, 17.exf6 is interesting but may be weaker than 17.Nxd5.

If Leisebein face that line more often, I believe he will switch into 9.Qf3 again, the main move which he used himself with good results.

To DoubledPawns and MNb, yes 4..c5 is really a good move, and after 5.d5 exf3 6.Nxf3 a6!, I agree with Carl that the word "refutation" is a little big, but it's true that Black have more chance to fight for an advantage coimpared to a line like 5..Bf5 or 5..g6 of the BDG accepted. Where I don't agree with MNb, is when he says that Black can follow with ..e6, I don't see how it can be dangerous. 
7.Bg5 is maybe the better move here, but I myself used 7.a4 for the moment, and after 7..Nbd7!, it is quite hard to play with White, where 8.Qe2 has been played, or 8.Bf4!? and 8.Bg5.

DoubledPawns wrote on 02/07/08 at 05:57:33:

I don't know if a poll is appropriate here, to decide whether it is good or not requires analysis rather than opinions.
Come to think of it, this thread require more analysis and less opinions!