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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to beat the BDG (Read 129631 times)
ArKheiN
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #109 - 01/30/08 at 10:09:21
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I don't trust 5.Bf4 against 4..c6. But in the Trompowsky move order, the Bf4 is quite good.

To Tracke, after 

1d4 d5 2e4 dxe4 3Nc3 Nf6 4f3 c6 5.Bc4 exf3 6Nxf3 Bf5 70-0 e6 8Ng5  Bg6 9Ne2 Na6, I don't remember the lines you gave but for the moment I would play 10.Nf4 and you? 5.fxe4 is playable too but I don't like it very much.
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #108 - 01/30/08 at 10:06:11
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Markovich wrote on 01/29/08 at 18:13:23:
Gambit wrote on 01/28/08 at 17:28:21:
tracke wrote on 01/27/08 at 12:17:30:
I repeat my =+ line from 2006, since then no BDG fanatic has even tried to improve for White:

1d4 d5 2e4 dxe4 3Nc3 Nf6 4f3 c6 5Bc4 (5fxe4 e5; 5Bg5/f4/e3 exf3) exf3 6Nxf3 Bf5 70-0 e6 8Ng5 (8Ne5 Bg6) Bg6 9Ne2 Na6

tracke  Smiley


Really? I don't see 5 Bf4 mentioned here.


Ah, chess at last.

5...Bf5.  Or for that matter, 5...exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5 and it appears to me that the Bf4 is no so well placed.


Gambit's suggested 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6 5.Bf4 is very similar to the Trompowsky line 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3!? Nf6 5.e4 dxe4 6.Nc3, where the extra Bf4 makes White's position playable, even though it is not the optimal square for the bishop. But in the BDG with Bf4 Black also has the "extra" tempo ...c6 (a move Black often plays anyway), so this should be good for Black. Leafing through Wells' "Winning with the Trompowsky" and comparing, the following defences should be considered:

5...exf3 6.Nxf3 e6 intending ...Be7 and if Bc4, ...Nd7-b6
5...exf3 6.Nxf3 g6 building a Grünfeld-type position

In both these lines White will be one tempo behind with his critical d5-break compared to games like Jansa-Sosonko, Amsterdam 1975 and Hodgson-Panchenko, Bern 1994.

Markovich's 5...Bf5 should also be promising, since White's play against it in the Trompowsky is often based on a Black weakness on b7.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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ArKheiN
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #107 - 01/30/08 at 09:37:43
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To Matemax: If you want to show the statistics, you should learn to uses them properly.

You gave the numbers of games played by White at master level, but not the score, but you gave the score for the Black side. And what can be said with theses statistics is: Masters with Black pieces, very often played against weaker opponents, maybe no masters opponents, nothing in your statistics tell us that every White played who played the BDG against Masters were courageous 1800 players. So, the reason of the defeat is not necessary because of the BDG, but because of the level of difference.

Most of us here might have no more chance to survive with the Ruy Lopez when our theory is over against 2400+, does it mean that the Ruy Lopez is bad? No, it only means that you are weaker than your opponent, or that you didn't handled the opening very well. 

Do you remember this match: Rybka against a GM (I don't remember his name), first Rybka played without the pawn a, in the second game without the pawn b, in the 6th game, without the f-pawn (oh, like the BDG), etc. The GM scored miserably. I think, in a match: Rybka playing the BDG vs 10 GM's OTB when they didn't know what it would play, the Machine would win something 8,5-1,5 (3 draws). 

Does it mean that the BDG is winning? No, I am the first to defend that opening but I know that Black can equalize fast but I don't think they get a concrete form of advantage, because to me, the BDG is a dynamical equality.

And there are at least 4 goods reason I see for masters that doesn't want to play the BDG as White:

1: It has a bad reputation, it looks very suspects at first, and I remember how myself looked at it without respect at first before I began to study it deeply. Masters usually like to play something which is quite reliable. There is a question of fashion too, many respectables openings are not played because of fashion for another line. I am waiting the day when Morozevitch will try the BDG Wink

2. It is really hard to play the BDG OTB, you have to calculate many tacticals variations, and sometimes, to play a move very hard to find needed to win or to draw by force, or you lose. So you might have zeitnot problems in complicated positions. 

3. At that level, you only can use it as a surprise weapon, because if every masters know that you will play that, you might fight many potentially good defenses well prepared.

4. Why would a master play something which is about equal as White when they begin with a small advantage? You don't see many Colle or Veresov too, and they don't have a pawn less, but it is well-known that Black should equalize easily. And they always search for something new in the well-known theory where they have chance to place their special preparation for one game (for example Ivanchuk and his Nf3 in the English attack in the Najdorf against Topalov).

So I gave possibles reasons to explain why Masters doesn't play the BDG often. And now I will give reasons why No Masters could play the BDG:

1. Under 2200, the Black side does not defend really good, you can win with a strong attack before 30 moves.

2. The BDG is practically unknown, the Black side will look the BDG badly, they want to refute you quickly with logicals moves like 5..Bg4. But White should know their positions far more, and it compensate a difference of level. You have the psychology advantage: you are only thinking "I will crushing you" with confidence into your pet gambit where your opponend might think "I will refute you but how?" or "What is it? Isn't it the Black Mortimer Gambit? What can I do?", or "Haha I already won, nobody play that, it should be really bad" and so on.

3. At your level, are you able to maintain a slight advantage? Even in the most theoreticals openings, it seems that Black manage to equalize at the end. Sveshnikov, Marshall gambit, where is the concrete "small advantag" and how to convert it as advantage? Maybe you even don't know what you followed the 15 firsts moves of Kasparov. So, you are here to play for fun I think, BDG is fun, it isn't losing, ok Black might equalize but if you like your position, who care?
If your opponent is really stronger, you have no more chance to win with a so well-known line than with the BDG. I even might say: at that level, you have more chances to win the BDG.

4. The basics idea of the BDG are quite easy to learn, even a 1600 could crush a 1800 with it, but if he faced his Najdorf he would not have survived 40 moves.

5. The rebel attitude. You are the only one in your chessclub who play that and you are proud, you know that the BDG has a bad reputation but you still win with it against yours local members and with an unique flagrance, and your opponent way "I have lost again to this patzer opening". And the others players looking at your f3 move and the evolution of the game might be amused.

They are maybe others reasons too.

Now mister wcywing, when you say "if its cowardly than it should be no problem beating it, for what's its worth, i like the zeigler and teichman's variation the best.  i always like an easy point.",

I wonder how you get an easy point against a BDG well handled.

ArKheiN, the patzer who play a patzer opening, wondering how I managed to win even a few games with that ,and waiting to be personnally challenged on corr, or blitz Grin
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #106 - 01/30/08 at 08:22:43
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Best keep your delusions to chess moves, rather than raising people from the dead Gambit.

Regards chickens - seems you never actually make it to tournaments. Plenty of excuses though. Funny that. Just a teenager in his bedroom, with his narrow playbook, on ICC. 'Bah, he didnt play MY favourite line. Muuuuum.'

wcywing - no they are all duffers. Sorry, have to call a spade a spade eventually.



  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #105 - 01/30/08 at 03:51:15
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Well, the slain will eventually be reincarnated some years later. It is possible they will fight again.

Lincoln was reincarnated as Kennedy. And, according to Nostradamus,
the Kennedy brothers were the reincarnation of Gaius and Tiberius Gracchi, the reformers of the Roman Republic. I believe they were elected consul in 133 B.C. Both brothers were assassinated, just like
JFK and RFK were.

  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #104 - 01/30/08 at 02:40:32
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TopNotch wrote on 01/29/08 at 22:25:45:
Nothing wrong with being a "chicken" in chess, particularly if it nets good results.

Remember that old adage - He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day. But he who fights and is slain, will never ever fight again. (So to speak) Wink

Topster Smiley 


Amen to that, O brother in chess.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #103 - 01/30/08 at 02:19:40
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MNb wrote on 01/28/08 at 20:54:52:
Gambit wrote on 01/28/08 at 17:40:38:

I am not avoiding anything here. Simply put, I want to play my opponent man-to-man, without any computer assistance. I have that right. 
KURITZA.

Sure you have that right. But you are avoiding corr games, aren't you? Again, you have the right but then I have the right to conclude you are not that sure about the theoretical value of the BDG.  Wink
What does Kuritza mean?  Huh


These days correspondence players have access to chess computers, which I consider cheating. For this reason, the only acceptable match is over-the-board. I do not want my opponent to have access to a chess database. It is my skill against my opponent's, and not the chess engine's.

And yes, kuritza is "chicken" in Polish and Russian.
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #102 - 01/29/08 at 22:25:45
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Nothing wrong with being a "chicken" in chess, particularly if it nets good results.

Remember that old adage - He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day. But he who fights and is slain, will never ever fight again. (So to speak) Wink

Topster Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #101 - 01/29/08 at 22:24:06
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this might be a stupid question, but with all these people that play the bdg, are any of them expert level or above?  i think a few Gm's might have played it once, but i don't think any play it on a consistent basis.   

as for Nietzsche advice

p.s. - my advice on talking to fanatic BDG adherents: 
"Smile, nod, and slowly back away." 

it is very wise   Wink
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #100 - 01/29/08 at 21:52:50
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Markovich,  I usually avoid reading BDG threads because of all the ridiculous personal attacks and off-topic ranting.  That said, I am delighted I quickly read through this thread.  Your comment on "Kuritza" really made me laugh. Grin

I've been sick the past few days and feel miserable; your comment really cheered me up.  This might be off-topic but, hey... its a BDG thread, that's par for the course.

Cheers,
Nietzsche

p.s. - my advice on talking to fanatic BDG adherents: 
"Smile, nod, and slowly back away."
  

"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #99 - 01/29/08 at 18:30:57
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Viking wrote on 01/28/08 at 21:06:45:
Kuritza means chicken.... (russian)


No, it is the first of the seven sacred passwords, each of which unlocks one of the successive gates into the Repository of Mystical BDG Arcana.  It is entered from the crypt of the village church in Radolfzell, Baden.   

Go there my son, stamp thy foot three times while holding aloft a decapitated bat, and proclaim "Kuritza!"  And thee shall commence thy path into the ways of The Gambit.  And the weakness and cowardice of the Spanish and the Queen's Gambit shall be revealed to thee.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #98 - 01/29/08 at 18:13:23
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Gambit wrote on 01/28/08 at 17:28:21:
tracke wrote on 01/27/08 at 12:17:30:
I repeat my =+ line from 2006, since then no BDG fanatic has even tried to improve for White:

1d4 d5 2e4 dxe4 3Nc3 Nf6 4f3 c6 5Bc4 (5fxe4 e5; 5Bg5/f4/e3 exf3) exf3 6Nxf3 Bf5 70-0 e6 8Ng5 (8Ne5 Bg6) Bg6 9Ne2 Na6

tracke  Smiley


Really? I don't see 5 Bf4 mentioned here.


Ah, chess at last.

5...Bf5.  Or for that matter, 5...exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5 and it appears to me that the Bf4 is no so well placed.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #97 - 01/28/08 at 22:52:07
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i don't think playing e3 or any other BDG declined is form of cowardice, but a form of psycological warfare.  most BDG people get mad or frustrated if black declines or counterattacks like using the lemberger, even Sawyer says its a good opening.  

if its cowardly than it should be no problem beating it, for what's its worth, i like the zeigler and teichman's variation the best.  i always like an easy point.   Wink  a better name to the thread, might be how can you not beat the BDG, however otb the BDG may be hard to beat at club level, but in higher levels you are pressing your luck.  sure Joel Benjamen lost to it, but it could have been a fluke.  

seriously though, you can not convince a bdg fanatic that it is unsound, nor can you convince a non-BDG person that it is sound.  i know Silman had an article somewhere that his analysis shows white losing to the zeigler, but is that going to convince a bdg fanatic?  no.  if a BDG fanatic post his analysis refuting Silman's idea's, is that going to convince the rest of the world, no.  

i do like BDG threads, they are so much fun to read.    Grin  
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #96 - 01/28/08 at 21:06:45
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Kuritza means chicken.... (russian)
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #95 - 01/28/08 at 20:54:52
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Gambit wrote on 01/28/08 at 17:40:38:

I am not avoiding anything here. Simply put, I want to play my opponent man-to-man, without any computer assistance. I have that right. 
KURITZA.

Sure you have that right. But you are avoiding corr games, aren't you? Again, you have the right but then I have the right to conclude you are not that sure about the theoretical value of the BDG.  Wink
What does Kuritza mean?  Huh
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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