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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit (Read 35963 times)
MNb
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #26 - 07/21/08 at 02:52:58
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kylemeister wrote on 07/20/08 at 15:25:23:
My main thought is that Black shouldn't be taking his own pawn (and hanging his Knight).

Darn, you stole my joke. Assuming Anon. means 5.Bc4 exf3, yes I think this is Black's best. Until now even LDZ has been too timid to give us any ideas in this variation, which has been heavily analysed on this site. Must be about the only BDG-variation which has not been polluted by LDZ's blitz games. It is also remarkable that LDZ did not dare to play 5.Bc4 against Tal Shaked - as I have noted before, a pussy after all. That is probably why he makes so much noise - he needs to hide for his own fears.  Wink
How about our loooonnnggg time control corr game, Lev? Until now you have been to cowardice to accept my challenge.
  
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #25 - 07/21/08 at 02:42:49
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Okay, here are my considerations on 4...c6 versus the BDG.

First of all, it needs to be shouted out: THE MOVE IS YELLOW COWARDICE!! 

If you are a GM, don't be a chicken, a scaredy cat, and accept the gambit. Or is the GM too scared to put his skill where his mouth is?
"Oooh, the BDG is unsound," thinks GM X. "But in order to demonstrate so, I will not take the f-pawn, which of course is the acid test of the gambit!"

This is the attitude of a yellow coward without  courage, no guts, not a GM.

Secondly, here is the game on ICC where a GM was lucky to get a draw:

Zilbermints - GM Tal Shaked (2782 ICC)
Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
O'Kelly Defense
Internet Chess Club, 3 0 rated blitz simul
8 July 2008

1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d5 2 e4 de4 3 e4 de4 4 Nc3 c6 5 Nxe4 Nxe4 6 fxe4 e5 7 Nf3 exd4 8 Bc4 Bb4+ 9 c3 dxc3 10 Bxf7+! Kxf7 11 Qb3+ Be6 12 Ng5+! Qxg5! 13 00+! Ke8 14 Qxe6+ Qe7 15 Qc8+ Qd8 16 Qe6+ Qe7
17 Qc8+ Qd8 18 Qe6+  Drawn by three-time repetition

Note that if 16...Be7?? 17 Qf7+ Kd7 18 Rd1+ Kc7 19 Rxd8 wins the Queen and game.

Third, I have found that IM Alfonso Almeida Saenz plays the BDG on ICC a lot. He often gets 4...e3, the cowardly Langeheinecke Defense played against him. This is probably because of his IM title. I am glad to say he beats this cowardly defense regularly.

In the future I will write an article on his games, tentatively called, "Beating the Cowardly Langeheinecke Defense".

Ha-ha-ha-ha....

Gambits, the heart and soul of chess!!
  
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #24 - 07/20/08 at 15:25:23
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My main thought is that Black shouldn't be taking his own pawn (and hanging his Knight).
  
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Anonymous
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #23 - 07/20/08 at 15:22:15
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The analysis of 4...c6 is a little bit different in Watson and Schiller's  How to Succeed in the Queen's Pawn Openings than it is in Kaufman's The Chess Advantage in Black and White. After 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 c6 5 Bc4, Watson and Schiller recommend 5...Qa5 and they say that this move isn't mentioned in the Blackmar-Diemer Keybook II or Lane's Blackmar-Diemer Gambit. Kaufman recommends 5...Bf5. Also, Watson and Schiller analyze what the Blackmar-Diemer Keybook II considers to be the main lines, 5...Nxe4. Kaufman doesn't analyze this move. 

What are your thoughts on all of this?
  
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #22 - 07/20/08 at 14:45:44
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TopNotch wrote on 07/20/08 at 02:25:15:
Quote:
I just bought a copy of Eric Schiller and John Watson's book How to Succeed in the Queen's Pawn Openings and one of there recommendations against the Blackmar-Diemer is 4...c6.
 

You buy Eric Schiller books?

Toppy Smiley


Not usually! This one was co-authored with John Watson so I thought it would be ok.
  
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #21 - 07/20/08 at 02:25:15
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Quote:
I just bought a copy of Eric Schiller and John Watson's book How to Succeed in the Queen's Pawn Openings and one of there recommendations against the Blackmar-Diemer is 4...c6.
 

You buy Eric Schiller books?

Toppy Smiley
  
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #20 - 07/19/08 at 23:20:19
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I just bought a copy of Eric Schiller and John Watson's book How to Succeed in the Queen's Pawn Openings and one of there recommendations against the Blackmar-Diemer is 4...c6.
  
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #19 - 03/16/08 at 21:00:00
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RedIvan wrote on 03/16/08 at 18:53:34:
Has anyone collected analysis of Ziegler Defense with 8.Ng5 in a pgn file? I tried looking at the analysis published by Emanuel Rajmund, but his website has such a crazy quilt of colors I can hardly read it.


Simply print out the analyses on a color printer. The colors probably emphasize different lines.
  
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MNb
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #18 - 03/16/08 at 20:32:22
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Do you have chessbase? I have stored the analysis in a game that I can send you. If interested, send me a PM. But be quick; next thursday I will leave for The Netherlands for two weeks.
  
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #17 - 03/16/08 at 18:53:34
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Has anyone collected analysis of Ziegler Defense with 8.Ng5 in a pgn file? I tried looking at the analysis published by Emanuel Rajmund, but his website has such a crazy quilt of colors I can hardly read it.
  
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #16 - 03/15/08 at 14:25:34
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1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.f3?! is inferior to 5.Ng3 and 5.Nxf6+.
  
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #15 - 03/15/08 at 00:02:34
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I would recommend a closer look at 5 Nxe4, as 5 Bc4 exf3 6 Nxf3 Bf5 is a troublesome line of the BDG for White (probably =+ in my judgement).
  
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #14 - 03/11/08 at 05:08:17
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As we now have a specific 4.c6 thread I shall post to this thread rather than the main BDG thread.

There is a completely different try for white that has not been discussed.

1. d4 d5
2. e4 dxe
3. Nc3 Nf6
4. f3 c6
5. Bf4 now if black plays 5...exf white plays Qxf3.

Diemer gave the line 

1.d4 d5
2. e4 dxe
3.Nc3 Nf6
4. f3 exf
5. Qxf3 in his book.

Now 5..c6 is one of the variations 6.Bf4 is little tested

Again 5.Qxd4 Bf4 (Be3 is the usual move may reach the line given). 

the line I give needs careful examination.
  
I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #13 - 03/10/08 at 23:21:08
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Paddy, you should read what I have said myself about the gambit in the "main thread" in the last pages...The BDG is not about fighting to keep a small advantage at OTB's best level...

If 8.Ne2 played by Short isn't sufficient, 8.Na4 deserve attention. It has been played by Leisebein on corr. His games at corr level are at least as good (and probably better than...) as a GM who would play OTB. Then 8..Nxe4 9.Qf3 and the game is quite interesting.
  
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Re: 4...c6 versus the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #12 - 03/10/08 at 02:34:54
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Paddy wrote on 03/10/08 at 00:26:27:


OK, we all know that chess openings are very much subject to fashion, but I don't think that's the case with the BDG. The fact that there hasn't been a single pro grandmaster EVER who earned his living by playing the BDG on a regular basis speaks volumes. There are several satisfactory defences and all Black needs is to learn one; among these,  4...c6 is one of the safest and easiest to learn and play.



Please do not bother us with facts.

  
I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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