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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1. ... c6 against 1. c4 (Read 14558 times)
benmax
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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #20 - 05/18/08 at 01:28:08
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Hi folks

After 1.c4 c6 2.e4 e5 
and now 3.Nf3
( a previous post mentioned this as the strongest and indeed it  worries me more than 3.Nc3 or 3.d4. I think I would welcome 3.f4 which should show c6 to be more helpful than c4 )

I have now tried the odd-ball  3...f5
a sort of "Improved Latvian Gambit" 

I first saw this in John Watson series of books on the English opening

4.Nxe5 Qf6
4.d4 fe 5.Nxe5 Nf6

Any thoughts ?
  
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TopNotch
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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #19 - 05/16/08 at 04:54:46
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I thinks GM's Miezis and Marin always meet 1.c4 c6  with 2.e4! with excellent results, all White players who go 1.c4 should include this line in their repertoire. I don't think most slav players will like it, regardless of what they would have you believe.

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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #18 - 05/15/08 at 22:55:09
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Hmmm I thing I get it.. I have the feeling that most caro players think that the best try for white to get an advantage is the panov to which I - who can only be white in a caro - would never play strangely enough.. 

  
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Antillian
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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #17 - 05/15/08 at 12:54:42
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 05/13/08 at 22:36:21:
 

I have been amazed that even against opponents who know my opening repertoire, I rarely (almost never) see 2.e4.  Yes, I am well prepared for it, but 2.e4 is the most direct attempt to refute Black's move order.   

online and otb, 1...c6 is an excellent weapon for the Slav player against the English.  I highly recommend it, but suggest switching up every now and again just to keep your opponents on their toes.

BTW, I have recently seen 2300-2500 rated players use 2.e4 a bit more.  It may just be a fluke but it could be the beginnings of a trend.


I am a bit lost. Aren't you a caro-kann player? So why would someone who knows your repertoire  and knows you play the caro-kann as Black play 2. e4 against you? 

And why is 2. e4 an attempt at refutation unless White knows that Black does not play the caro-kann? After all, 1. e4 c6 2. c4 is not considered to be the sternest test of the caro-kann. What am I missing?
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #16 - 05/13/08 at 22:36:21
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I started using 1.c4 c6 as an occasional sideline to my main repertoire about a decade ago.  Benko used that move order a few times, so I decided to give it a try.   

I have been amazed that even against opponents who know my opening repertoire, I rarely (almost never) see 2.e4.  Yes, I am well prepared for it, but 2.e4 is the most direct attempt to refute Black's move order.   

In my experience, both online and otb, 1...c6 is an excellent weapon for the Slav player against the English.  I highly recommend it, but suggest switching up every now and again just to keep your opponents on their toes.

BTW, I have recently seen 2300-2500 rated players use 2.e4 a bit more.  It may just be a fluke but it could be the beginnings of a trend.
  
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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #15 - 05/13/08 at 05:49:07
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c6 seems to work for me so far. The most common to 1. c4 c6 is d4 entering right into Slav lines with d5. The oher common answer is e4 which receives e6. The delaying move on deciding Nf3 receives Nf6 responding with a delaying move.
  
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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #14 - 05/12/08 at 19:27:06
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@Cyronix:

What about trying 1...Nf6 against 1.c4? Then if 2.g3 or 2.Nf3, play 2...c6.
(However, one problem I can think of is if 2.Nc3 c6, then 3.e4....)
  

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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #13 - 05/11/08 at 06:00:21
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It seems to me that this is a reasonable choice.  Yes, you have to learn the Panov, but it's certainly a solid opening for Black.  You also have to be ready for lines that don't transpose to the Panov.  For example, Emms recommends 1.e4 2.c4 vs the Caro in his e4 repertoire book (without transposition to the Panov).  Meeting 1.c4 with c6 seems to be a very efficient choice for the Slav player (rather than taking on main line English positions).

Scott

Quote:
I play the slav,
currently I play ... e5 with a later Bb4 against the english,
but I am not that satisfied, the only  way to deviate for white,
is e4 manoevuering the game into the carocann,
but only into the carocann panov attack in the end,
can't I just learn the panov attack for black and then just play ... c6 against c4?

  

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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #12 - 05/11/08 at 04:59:12
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yea I too struggle with the English as a slav/semi slav player. I try to play Hedgehog/Symmetrical Four Knights stuff but I find there is too many transpositions to sicillians! I'm going to start trying out the c6 ideas in correspondence and see how it goes.
  
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Antillian
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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #11 - 05/09/08 at 12:42:50
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MNb wrote on 05/08/08 at 02:57:20:
Antillian wrote on 05/07/08 at 19:40:55:
Is there something wrong with 1. c4 c6 2. e4 e5 ?

Might transpose to an Old-Indian - not the first thing I would recommend to someone who plays some Slav.


Yes, just found that apparently Karpov and Podgaets suggest 3. Nf3, which according to Silman leaves Black with a "cheerless" position. I happen to have that book on order so will check it out when it comes. 

http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_js/Caro_Kann_Panov_Attack.html
  

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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #10 - 05/08/08 at 02:57:20
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Antillian wrote on 05/07/08 at 19:40:55:
Is there something wrong with 1. c4 c6 2. e4 e5 ?

Might transpose to an Old-Indian - not the first thing I would recommend to someone who plays some Slav.
  

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cyronix
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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #9 - 05/07/08 at 19:50:21
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the antidote could be

1.c4 c6
2.e4 d5
3.cxd exd
4.exd Nf6
5.Qa4+ Nb-d7
6.Nc3 g6
7.Nf3 Bg7
8.Bc4 0-0
9.d3 Nb6!
10.Qb3 Bg4!
11.Ne5 

(11. Ng5 Rc8 12. Be3 h6 13. Ng-e4 Nxe4 14. Nxe4 Nxc4
15. dxc4 Qa5+ 16. Nd2 e6!! =)

11. ... Qc7
12. Nxg4 Nxg4
13. h3 Nxc4
14. Qxc4 Qxc4
15. dxc4 Ne5 =
  
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Antillian
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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #8 - 05/07/08 at 19:40:55
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Is there something wrong with 1. c4 c6 2. e4 e5 ?
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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cyronix
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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #7 - 05/07/08 at 19:22:15
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Looking into 
1.c4 c6
2.e4 e6

this doesn't look too bad,
but there must be a reason why noone plays it,
last game I found in this line on 2500 level was in 1993.
I have tried out too much unknown stuff by now,
so that I know there are no secret jewels in chess ...
  
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cyronix
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Re: 1. ... c6 against 1. c4
Reply #6 - 05/07/08 at 19:00:34
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No after 1.c4 c6 2. e4 you have to play ... d5.
this other indian stuff also with pawn already committed to c6 is not really good.

Actually I don't think that the panov is too bad for black,
you can also play that with ... g6, on top level the 1.e4 players normally chose the classical or the advance, but not the panov attack.
You are quite solid and still have chances with a g6 setup,
The only line I still dislike and a normal carocann player can also face is 

1. e4 c6 
2. c4 d5 
3. cxd exd 
4. exd Nf6 
5. Qa4+ Nb-d7

and white keeps the pawn on d5, still these are 2 double isolated pawns, but in practice it's still not so easy ...

but on top level noone plays this somehow,
so it can't be really good, but I still have not found the antidote. 
But still some 2600s play this line.
  
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