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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) GPA or Nc6 Bb5?? (Read 17182 times)
Willempie
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #13 - 05/20/08 at 15:25:33
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Stigma wrote on 05/20/08 at 12:07:33:
Willempie wrote on 05/20/08 at 11:41:29:

Still after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Be7 or a6 you are forced out of the scary Schevy lines such as the Keres-attack or certain Sozin lines.


Good point, I hadn't thought about that issue. Probably because I have considered mainly the Classical, English Attack and 6.g3 for White, to fit thematically with similar lines against other Sicilians.

The Keres is probably out of the question with no knight on f6 yet, but how exactly can black exploit this move order if White plays 6.Bc4? Something with an early ...b5, perhaps? 

Well to start with after 6..Nf6 you are in the worst form of the Sozin as Be7 does a good job protecting the king (usually not possible in the Najdorf Sozin) and can move his knight to c5 (not possible in the classical Sozin). Iirc Golubev only gives 3 pages on this as he thinks it is the worst form of the Sozin, though he remarks that many blacks dont appreciate this and transpose to the Najdorf or Classical.
And yes something with 6..a6 while delaying Nf6 a little and later b5 also looks good.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Stigma
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #12 - 05/20/08 at 12:07:33
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Willempie wrote on 05/20/08 at 11:41:29:

Still after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Be7 or a6 you are forced out of the scary Schevy lines such as the Keres-attack or certain Sozin lines.


Good point, I hadn't thought about that issue. Probably because I have considered mainly the Classical, English Attack and 6.g3 for White, to fit thematically with similar lines against other Sicilians.

The Keres is probably out of the question with no knight on f6 yet, but how exactly can black exploit this move order if White plays 6.Bc4? Something with an early ...b5, perhaps? 

Come to think of it, I think Frank Zeller covered this move order (e6/d6/a6 before any piece moves, with White committed to Nc3) in his book "Sizilianisch im Geiste des Igels" and considered it a good starting point for a Kan/Hedgehog for Black if White allows it. Maybe I will dig out the book and look again at his conclusions. Food for thought!

Edit: 
My brain works slowly today...
The position after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 a6 can of course also arise via a Kan move order: 3.Nf3 a6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 d6. So it should be covered in Experts vs the Sicilian, and if I'm not mistaken Sune Berg Hansen's recommendation there was 6.Bd3, with similar play to his other Kan lines. If Black unthinkingly plays like a normal Scheveningen, White might save a tempo on Classical lines with Be2-d3, so both sides need to show some care.
  

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Willempie
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #11 - 05/20/08 at 11:41:29
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Stigma wrote on 05/20/08 at 11:10:26:
Read a bit more carefully, my friend... Smiley

Seriously though, I know it is customary to count the Scheveningen as a d6-Sicilian. I included it in the e6-group here precisely for the reason you give; 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4!

Aha. Careful reading indeed Smiley

Still after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Be7 or a6 you are forced out of the scary Schevy lines such as the Keres-attack or certain Sozin lines.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Stigma
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #10 - 05/20/08 at 11:10:26
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Willempie wrote on 05/20/08 at 11:01:15:
Stigma wrote on 05/20/08 at 10:06:51:
Agreed, both the GPA and 3.Bb5 are most effective if combined with an Open repertoire against the e6-Sicilians (Taimanov, Kan, Scheveningen and 4 Knights). 
...

3..d6?
You can play 4.Bb5+ but I dont think it is anything to worry about, while 4.d4 sets you in the Scheveningen, which you were trying to avoid.


Read a bit more carefully, my friend... Smiley

Seriously though, I know it is customary to count the Scheveningen as a d6-Sicilian. I included it in the e6-group here precisely for the reason you give; 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4!
  

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Willempie
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #9 - 05/20/08 at 11:01:15
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Stigma wrote on 05/20/08 at 10:06:51:
Agreed, both the GPA and 3.Bb5 are most effective if combined with an Open repertoire against the e6-Sicilians (Taimanov, Kan, Scheveningen and 4 Knights). I would have thought MNb wouldn't mind recommending such a combination; is it just too inconsistent to combine "Opens" and "Antis"?

The 2.Nc3 move-order has some independent value even with 2...e6 3.Nf3: We avoid the Gå-På (2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Qb6), the Pin variation, the Basman-Sale variation/"Sizilianisch für Müssiggänger" (2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 Nxd4 Bc5) and the Kveinys variation (2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 Nxd4 Qb6). While of course seriously reducing our options against the Kan, but the Nc3/Bd3 repertoire from "Experts vs the Sicilian" is still playable and critical.

3..d6?
You can play 4.Bb5+ but I dont think it is anything to worry about, while 4.d4 sets you in the Scheveningen, which you were trying to avoid.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Stigma
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #8 - 05/20/08 at 10:06:51
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Agreed, both the GPA and 3.Bb5 are most effective if combined with an Open repertoire against the e6-Sicilians (Taimanov, Kan, Scheveningen and 4 Knights). I would have thought MNb wouldn't mind recommending such a combination; is it just too inconsistent to combine "Opens" and "Antis"?

The 2.Nc3 move-order has some independent value even with 2...e6 3.Nf3: We avoid the Gå-På (2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Qb6), the Pin variation, the Basman-Sale variation/"Sizilianisch für Müssiggänger" (2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 Nxd4 Bc5) and the Kveinys variation (2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 Nxd4 Qb6). While of course seriously reducing our options against the Kan, but the Nc3/Bd3 repertoire from "Experts vs the Sicilian" is still playable and critical.

I have tried to think of a smooth way for juniors (or adults) to gradually take up the Open Sicilian without drowning in all Black's pet lines at once, and came up with:

Stage 1: GPA or 3.Bb5 (most weak opponents automatically play 2...Nc6)
Stage 2: GPA or 3.Bb5; Open against 2...e6 and 2...a6
Stage 3: (optional) Switch to 2.Nf3. Rossolimo; Moscow or 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4!?; Open         against 2...e6
Stage 4: 2.Nf3: Rossolimo, Open against 2...e6 and 2...d6
Stage 5: Open against everything (though many strong players stay in Stage 4)

There is however a more brutal, aggressive route, which I have seen some trainers/youngsters take with success:

Stage 1: Morra Gambit (teach development, attacking play, standard sacrifices)
Stage 2: Open Sicilians (when opponents start playing the best defences to the Morra!)
« Last Edit: 05/20/08 at 12:51:55 by Stigma »  

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Keano
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #7 - 05/20/08 at 09:04:34
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True - but 2...e6 is not the most popular, probably because of 3.Nf3!? and 4.d4 with a change of mind back to open Sicilian.

Modern chess is a move-order headache.
  
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #6 - 05/20/08 at 01:22:16
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As soon as I know how to meet the dull 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 d5 4.Nf3 dxe4 I will recommend the GPA.
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #5 - 05/19/08 at 09:51:52
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There are a lot of people here trying to say the best is this, the best is that. It might well be that the "best" is the open Sicilian, which is what I like myself, but I´d not be so dogmatic as to dismiss the GPA, which I suspect may score even better results than the open Sicilian below the GM level. Even Short has given this a bash in a Candidates match against Gelfand, so lets not get too snobby here.
  
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #4 - 05/19/08 at 06:25:59
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If you are going to avoid the Open Sicilian, then the Rossolimo (2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5) and the Moscow (2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5) are the best chances for an opening advantage. Against 2...e6, the Alapin Sicilian (3.c3) is the only real chance to fight for any edge at all without playing the Open Sicilian, although Black should still be able to equalise without a lot of difficulty in this line.

So, play the Open Sicilian!
  

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Stigma
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #3 - 05/17/08 at 17:07:25
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I think both should allow black to equalize. But 3.Bb5 is still not so well-explored, and may come more as a surprise. I sometimes play both; many of the plans are similiar though usually the GPA is more directly aggresive.
  

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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #2 - 05/17/08 at 15:03:50
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The best are the mainlines.

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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MNb
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Re: GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
Reply #1 - 05/17/08 at 15:03:30
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Best is Open Sicilian.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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GPA or Nc6 Bb5??
05/17/08 at 04:01:26
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Hi all,
wich is best:
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 and grand prix or 3.Bb5??
thanks everyone who reads this!!
Zatara
  
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