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HgMan
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Re: BDG & Theory
Reply #9 - 07/30/08 at 19:09:00
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MNb wrote on 07/30/08 at 16:35:57:
Anonymous2 wrote on 07/30/08 at 05:43:07:
If BDG-fans want a sharp game, then why don't they just play 1.e4? Wink

Why don't they play 2.c4 and allow Black to keep the pawn after ...dxc4 ? These days I am convinced that 1.d4/2.c4 provides more chances for a tactical slugfest than 1.e4 (Petrov, Berlin Defence, Fort Knox).

HgMan, if I were you I would happily play 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 (as I am me it will be 2...e6). Principles don't get a chessplayer too far and why miss the chance to fight that BDGeer on familiar ground?


Well, naturally, 2...c6 is what I have in mind after 1.d4 d5 2.e4, though I have also started to look at the French again.  I can only presume that this puts me on more familiar ground, which is not nothing...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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SWJediknight
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Re: BDG & Theory
Reply #8 - 07/30/08 at 16:46:28
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I think that only holds true on the assumption that you follow main lines after 1 e4.  After 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6, there's the Scotch, Goring, Evans, Two Knights and various central gambits.  After 2...Nf6 there's the Cochrane Gambit.  White can also deviate at move 2 with 2 d4 or the King's Gambit.
The Fort Knox can be side-stepped with the Tarrasch, Advance, or 3 Nc3 dxe4 4 f3.

I will concede, though, that objectively those gambits are easier to equalise against than most of the sharp gambits that can arise from 1 d4 d5 2 c4.  That said, it's much harder to find sharp tactical lines for White after 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 that are likely to provide an edge with accurate play.
  
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MNb
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Re: BDG & Theory
Reply #7 - 07/30/08 at 16:35:57
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Anonymous2 wrote on 07/30/08 at 05:43:07:
If BDG-fans want a sharp game, then why don't they just play 1.e4? Wink

Why don't they play 2.c4 and allow Black to keep the pawn after ...dxc4 ? These days I am convinced that 1.d4/2.c4 provides more chances for a tactical slugfest than 1.e4 (Petrov, Berlin Defence, Fort Knox).

HgMan, if I were you I would happily play 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 (as I am me it will be 2...e6). Principles don't get a chessplayer too far and why miss the chance to fight that BDGeer on familiar ground?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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SWJediknight
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Re: BDG & Theory
Reply #6 - 07/30/08 at 16:35:12
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Playing gambits and attacking does require some positional understanding to yield much success above a certain level.   I completely agree with the last part of MNb's post above.  In addition most gambits can be declined safely, so you need to know how to generate winning chances from relatively balanced tactical positions.

I think of playing BDG and nothing else as a very narrow way of playing- of course, each to their own, if that's what you enjoy then that's fine, but it does mean you get similar positions in pretty much every game.  Therefore your understanding of chess ends up stunted and you're more likely to come unstuck when opponents "duck out" with a line like 1 d4 d5 2 e4 e6 3 Nc3 (or 2 Nc3 e6 3 e4) Bb4, putting a stop to White's e4/f3-gambit ideas.

Actually, when I first started chess I wasn't that much of a gambiteer, I used to play the standard openings juniors are taught (Italian Game, Fried Liver, Open Sicilian) and dabbled in the Queen's Gambit and Torre Attack, and played seriously in tournaments.  It was when I rediscovered my chess-playing hobby in 2004 that I decided to just play for pleasure and started experimenting with various gambit lines, resulting in me adding a large assortment of gambits to my repertoire.

However I'm primarily an 1 e4-player so I use the BDG only as an occasional weapon, usually via transposition from certain 1 e4-openings (although I do occasionally wheel out 1 d4, 2 Nc3 and 3 e4, when in practice many of my opponents transpose back to a French or Pirc). 

I agree about the distinction between serious and fun chess.  Of course, different people find different aspects of chess 'fun', but as in most competitive activities, the majority tend to find more 'fun' in risky and aggressive play than in technical grinding play.
  
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dmp4373
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Re: BDG & Theory
Reply #5 - 07/30/08 at 14:53:22
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Anonymous2 wrote on 07/30/08 at 05:43:07:
If BDG-fans want a sharp game, then why don't they just play 1.e4? Wink


You're of course right, 1.e4 can indeed lead to sharp positions if White wants it. But the BDG and to a lesser extent the Sicilian Dragon, have devoted followers that feel like they belong to an exclusive club. Though some would no doubt chide, 'a club of weak players' when it comes to the BDG. Whenever I've played a BDG in a tournament, other BDGers would come up to me and introduce themselves and we would discuss the opening and our experiences. That doesn't happen with other openings. There is a sense of community within that opening unlike anything else in chess. 

  
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Re: BDG & Theory
Reply #4 - 07/30/08 at 05:43:07
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If BDG-fans want a sharp game, then why don't they just play 1.e4? Wink
  

What does author X say about this move? Why doesn't author Y mention that move?
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dmp4373
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Re: BDG & Theory
Reply #3 - 07/30/08 at 05:39:20
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I started playing gambits after an opponent told me my strategy to win was to try to make the game so boring that an opponent would fall asleep! 

I then found that gambits are a lot of fun and began playing them so often that my positional, and even my endgame play, began to weaken over time. However, my understanding of sharp, messy positions grew and has tended to compensate somewhat. 

There's serious chess and there's fun chess. And someone playing the BDG isn't overly concerned about losing. It's all about having a good time. That's why BDGers tend to look for sharp lines everywhere.
  
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HgMan
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Re: BDG & Theory
Reply #2 - 07/30/08 at 03:16:43
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I'm grateful, MNb, for your very thoughtful and candid comments.  My question was inspired by my preparing for my first otb tournament in more than a decade and trying to think about what opening preparations were necessary based on a variety of possibilities from my opponent.  That, combined with a number of the brasher comments here, left me wondering if transposing from a BDG to a French or Caro would result in my opponent throwing the chessboard at me and calling me a coward or--more to the point--to what extent I could expect him/her to be well-prepared for my "cowardice."
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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MNb
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Re: BDG & Theory
Reply #1 - 07/30/08 at 01:16:45
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HgMan wrote on 07/29/08 at 13:35:43:
has me wondering whether players bent on gambits actually know any theory beyond their pet variations and what positional understanding they might have.


When I started studying openings more than 25 years ago I was a diehard gambiteer - Volga Gambit, Danish Gambit, Morra Gambit, Jänisch-Schliemann, Falkbeer and a few more belonged to my first serious repertoire. I also remember being excited when I discovered the 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.f3 variation against the C-K. But I have always tried to remain objective and very quickly turned to the Caro-Kann 4.Bd3 instead. Also rather quickly I discovered that I found it harder to meet solid declining variations than the sharp stuff after accepting a gambit. Quite a few gambiteers I have met bashed such solid play; I have always suspected because they didn't know how to handle it.
I sincerely have tried to explore more than gambit-stuff. If I have succeeded is another matter, but one thing I have noticed: I tend to have success in positions with an isolated centre pawn against players of about equal strength, at both sides of the board! At the other hand I am afraid my positional understanding is seriously lacking. Not that that thought keeps me awake at night.
At the moment my repertoire is build around all those "real" Queen Gambits, so once a gambiteer always a gambiteer I suppose.
My last point is this. I have always felt that gambiteers should try to get positional understanding as well. Gambit/attacking play is not a different kind of chess and that often seems to be completely forgotten. A weakness is a weakness, initiative is initiative, a strong square is a strong square, if you have sacced material or not.
  

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HgMan
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BDG & Theory
07/29/08 at 13:35:43
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This is a sincere question and not one aimed at provoking die-hard BD gambiteers, but all this talk about machismo and cowardice associated with playing or declining gambits has me wondering whether players bent on gambits actually know any theory beyond their pet variations and what positional understanding they might have.

Is declining the BDG cowardice or taking the game along paths that the gambiteer does not know so well?  In the past, I've played the French or Caro-Kann (two openings I played against 1.e4) against the BDG, and I won very easily.  Do BDG players consider these more "traditional" alternatives and prepare for them accordingly?

Moreover, aside from the precarious imbalances they seek to acquire over the board, do BDG players understand the qualities of space, central control, piece activity, etc., or do they prey primarily upon the chaos on the board?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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