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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Strongest lines for White after 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5 (Read 18602 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Strongest lines for White after 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5
Reply #8 - 03/09/09 at 01:21:53
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Thanks for replies everybody!

These move orders grow complicated, esp. late at night! ...

@ MNb
I'm not sure I see your point here, since 3 g3 appears to commit White either to a Fianchetto Benoni or to a Fianchetto KID, as TN says and as you yourself implicitly say in giving your line (b).

@ TN, kylemeister
I'm not yet in a position to have a view on the respective merits of 6 Nc2 and 6 e4 -- but the former does usefully accord with Davies' repertoire in [i]The Dynamic Reti[/i]. I don't actually play 1 e4 myself, but I'm certainly with Portisch here in spirit ...

Actually, I'm not opposed to playing a Fianchetto KID, or [i]anything[/i] else, so much as cutting down work. But I like your last suggestion, kylemeister. I assume -- please correct me if I'm wrong -- you're referring to 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 Nc3 g6 4 d4 Bg7!? 5 e4 (instead of 5 d5) 0-0 6 Be2 d6 7 0-0 ([i]NCO[/i] 525/2), which is a bit better for White after 7 ...Nc6 8 d5 Na5 9 Bg5 or 9 Bd2, and that Black can't really avoid this [i]except[/i] via ...cxd4 allowing a Maroczy Bind.

I'm really interested, TN, that on 3 Nc3 d5 you think White should choose the Nimzowitsch line 4 cd Nd5 5 e4!? (5 Qa4, though I've seen it recommended somewhere or other, surely has confusion value only) in preference to letting Black play a Rubinstein. About time I tried to play some more attacking chess perhaps. You can stodge around too long ...
  
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Re: Strongest lines for White after 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5
Reply #7 - 03/08/09 at 05:02:13
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After 3.b4 cb4 4.a3 e6 5.Bb2 Nc6 I would rather be Black.
  
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Re: Strongest lines for White after 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5
Reply #6 - 03/08/09 at 04:44:55
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Try 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 b4 wti 3...cb4 4 a3!
  
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Re: Strongest lines for White after 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5
Reply #5 - 03/08/09 at 00:03:07
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After 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. Nc3 g6 4. d4 cd 5. Nxd4 Nc6, 6. e4 is also a good move  Smiley  The comment about the Maroczy being best for 1. e4 players reminded me of a comment once made about Portisch:  he never plays 1. e4, but if he could be assured of getting a Maroczy, he would play nothing but.

Aside from heading for the white side of a Gheorghiu Benoni (if Black doesn't take on d4), there's also the possibility of heading for a 6...c5 classical KID (generally considered slightly better for White) by delaying d5.
« Last Edit: 03/08/09 at 04:39:45 by kylemeister »  
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Re: Strongest lines for White after 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5
Reply #4 - 03/07/09 at 22:55:34
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MNb wrote on 03/07/09 at 21:12:47:
TN wrote on 03/07/09 at 11:44:34:
My personal view is that 3.Nc3 is a slightly better choice than 3.g3, for the following reasons:

1) It is easier for White to handle 3.Nc3 g6 than 3.g3 g6 if he does not have the Fianchetto KID or Fianchetto Benoni in his White repertoire.

White simply can avoid the Fianchetto Benoni by refusing to play d4-d5 and then it does not matter if he plays 3.Nc3 or 3.g3 first: 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.Nc3 Nc6 7.d4
a) 7...cxd4 8.Nxd4 is thought to be a little better for White.
b) 7...d6 is one variation of the Fianchetto KID (Jugoslav? Panno? something like that).

So argument 1) is not very strong.


Perhaps, although 3.Nc3 has the advantage of being able to meet 3...g6 with either 4.g3 leading to one of your given lines (probably the best choice for someone who usually plays 1.d4) or 4.d4, leading to a Maroczy Bind (probably the best choice for someone who usually plays 1.e4). 

Since Michael would prefer to avoid the transposition to the Fianchetto KID, I would recommend 4.d4, as stated earlier. If 4...Bg7, then 5.d5 will lead to a Benoni - if White has the Benoni with Nf3 in his repertoire, then this should be a favourable transition for him. 

@Michael Ayton

Thanks for the reference to Morozevich-Lutz - I had already seen the game but had forgotten about Morozevich's 9.Ng5 idea. However, instead of 9...Nfd7, 9...h6 is supposed to equalise for Black. 

Edit: After 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nc3 g6 4.d4 cd4 5.Nd4 Bg7 the reason I prefer 6.Nc2 to 6.e4 is to avoid the Gurgenidze Variation with 6...Nd4 7.Qd4 d6, mainly out of personal preference rather than considering one to be superior to the other.
« Last Edit: 03/08/09 at 02:10:17 by TN »  
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Re: Strongest lines for White after 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5
Reply #3 - 03/07/09 at 21:12:47
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TN wrote on 03/07/09 at 11:44:34:
My personal view is that 3.Nc3 is a slightly better choice than 3.g3, for the following reasons:

1) It is easier for White to handle 3.Nc3 g6 than 3.g3 g6 if he does not have the Fianchetto KID or Fianchetto Benoni in his White repertoire.

White simply can avoid the Fianchetto Benoni by refusing to play d4-d5 and then it does not matter if he plays 3.Nc3 or 3.g3 first: 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.Nc3 Nc6 7.d4
a) 7...cxd4 8.Nxd4 is thought to be a little better for White.
b) 7...d6 is one variation of the Fianchetto KID (Jugoslav? Panno? something like that).

So argument 1) is not very strong.
  
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Re: Strongest lines for White after 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5
Reply #2 - 03/07/09 at 12:14:39
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Very interesting thoughts, TN! -- thank you.

I need to take a much longer look but here are some quick thoughts. Re your point (1): 3 Nc3 g6 4 d4 and here my fear was that Black could just play 4 ...Bg7, leading to an E91 KID if Black avoids ...cxd4 (or even a Benoni after say 5 d5 e6!?). I guess 5 e4 0-0 6 d5 d6 7 Bd3 or 7 h3 are more than OK and that I should be prepared to play KID lines like this, but then what on (e.g.) 6 ...e6 or even 6 ...b5 here? (A related question might be, if I want to play the Maroczy Bind lines and minimise the KID ones, are 4 d4 and [i]4 e4[/i] of equal value?)

Re your second point, there's also [i]5[/i] e4, as in Morozevich--Lutz -- a great game!

I'll take another look at the A38-9 stuff. One advantage I guess of either third move for White is that I have the option of (e.g.) 3 Nc3 3 Nc6 4 g3 d5 5 cd Nd5 6 d4!?, which is meant to be good for White (if also deadly boring! ...)?
  
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Re: Strongest lines for White after 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5
Reply #1 - 03/07/09 at 11:44:34
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My personal view is that 3.Nc3 is a slightly better choice than 3.g3, for the following reasons:

1) It is easier for White to handle 3.Nc3 g6 than 3.g3 g6 if he does not have the Fianchetto KID or Fianchetto Benoni in his White repertoire. After 3.Nc3 g6 White can play 4.d4 cd4 5.Nd4 Nc6 6.Nc2 followed by 7.e4, when White does have to know the Maroczy Bind for White, but if he owns 'Experts vs. the Sicilian', then this shouldn't be a real hassle. 

2) Playing 3.Nc3 saves you having to learn how to meet the Double Fianchetto Variation (3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bb7 5.0-0 g6) since 3.Nc3 b6 is met by 4.e4, as mentioned earlier. You still have to learn the Hedgehog, reached via. 3.Nc3 e6 4.g3 b6, unless you learn 4.e4, when after 4...Nc6 a common Anti-Sicilian (1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 Nc6 4.Nc3 Nf6) is reached, which in fact seems to offer decent chances at an edge. 

3) 3.Nc3 d5 4.cd5 Nd5 gives White extra options other than 5.g3, namely 5.d4 and 5.e4, the latter of which is sharper and in my view more challenging. 

However, you cannot avoid the A39 lines with either move order, since after 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.g3 Black can play 4...g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 to force you into the A38-A39 lines. However, here 6.d4 cd4 7.Nd4 0-0 8.Nc2!? is an interesting alternative to 8.0-0 that offers good chances of an edge. 

These move-order issues are quite tricky indeed. However, ECO A  covers them rather well. You can also play 3.d4, although there I think Black equalises with, among other lines, 3...cd4 4.Nd4 e6 5.Nc3/g3 5...Bb4, as advocated by Cox.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Strongest lines for White after 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5
03/07/09 at 10:58:36
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I'm considering, after 1 Nf3 Nf6, playing 2 c4 instead of my usual 2 g3, and am wondering which people think are the strong lines for White and which the more innocuous. I'm aware this is a hugely controversial subject! As a sort of 'marker', as White I'm attracted to strategic play/using space advantages, positions that are neither too sharp nor too grindingly technical. (OK, I want everything! ...) So for example I like the closed Reti, the Symmetrical English (only with ...d6?), and the Hedgehog. I've got Davies' Reti book and like a lot of the lines he recommends, but have doubts about others (e.g. 3 g3 g6 4 b3 Bg7 5 Bb2 when there are options D. doesn't mention such as 5 ...d6 6 d4 Ne4!?).

A critical question might be, 3 g3 or 3 Nc3? The latter discourages 3 ...b6 (4 e4!), and lets White (if he wants) meet 3 ...d5 with Nimzowitsch's 4 cd Nd5 5 e4 (or even 5 Qa4!?) instead of taking on the Rubinstein as Davies (controversially? -- but what else?) recommends. But (after either 3 Nc3 or 3 g3) what on 3 ...g6? The A39 Symmetrical English is promising for White but are there any positions at all in which Black's actually constrained to play ...cxd4? 

Apologies if there are any threads on this which I've overlooked. I'd be interested to know of them, plus of relevant literature.

  
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