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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Closed vs c3 (Read 19265 times)
BPaulsen
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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #25 - 05/18/09 at 17:11:26
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chk wrote on 03/18/09 at 08:55:50:

and some food for thought:
- Alapin: if you also like the French Advance, you may try to transpose to the French
- Closed Sicilian with c3 (the 'Big Clamp'): the greedy approach to chess


I'd probably take up the Sicilian if I knew I could get a French Advance out of the Alapin every time.

The Big Clamp is obnoxious, definitely a great club-level tool. Sometimes I use 1. e4 e6 2. d3 c5 to avoid the French-KIA as black (not that there's any big reason to, but Sicilian KIA seems to have more winning chances), just to end up dealing with the Clamp.
  

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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #24 - 04/25/09 at 13:33:55
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How about:

1.e4 c5 2.c3 b6  Smiley Any idea??
  
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TN
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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #23 - 04/05/09 at 22:10:39
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I agree that the c3 Sicilian is a good choice, but these statistics don't prove that the Alapin is a better practical choice than the Open Sicilian, for the following reasons:

a) Such statistics are not a reliable source, simply a guide.

b) You are only comparing the Alapin to a variation of the Najdorf. It would be more accurate to compare the c3 Sicilian to all Open Sicilians (to do this, do individual searches for B32-B39, B41-B49 and B55-B99 and 'select all' for each and press 'F5'.) Then once you have all of the relevant games in the Clip Database, use the statistics function to determine the statistics for the line.
  

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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #22 - 04/05/09 at 19:25:37
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I did a search in my TWIC database. Only games of 2400+. Statistics
c3 sicilian 
1-0 26%
1/2 56%
0-1 18% 

English Attack in the Najdorf
1-0  32%
1/2  36%
0-1  32% 
It seems c3 is a good choice!
  
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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #21 - 03/22/09 at 11:42:42
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km
thanks for that. 
Bibs
  
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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #20 - 03/21/09 at 03:57:40
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Bibs

Yes indeed.  The edition I have is from 1973.  In the 7...f5 8. Qe2 line (right move numbers this time, I hope), it doesn't cover any of that newfangled stuff involving moves like ...b5, ...b6 or ...Nde7 -- just some lines with ...d6, where Smith has White winning the battle for e5 and whatnot.
  
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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #19 - 03/21/09 at 00:53:47
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kylemeister wrote on 03/20/09 at 21:28:30:
MNb wrote on 03/20/09 at 20:48:30:
Dutch IM Paul Boersma thought 1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.d4 cxd4 5.Qxd4 e6 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Qe4 f5 favourable for Black. Is there reason to doubt his verdict, except time?


It seems that the usual view (e.g. in ECO, NCO and Sveshnikov's B22 monograph) has long been that it should be equal or unclear.  

Incidentally I first became aware of 5. Qxd4 due to its advocacy by Ken Smith, who thought 4...e6 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Qe4 f5 7. Qe2 was good for White.  


Kylemeister

Just wondering - where was this? In one of those Morra Gambit booklets? I havent seen the Smith analysis on this. 
Overall the Qd4: stuff looks interesting and quite hacky.
  
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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #18 - 03/20/09 at 23:41:34
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@TN

You meant yearbooks 73 and 74.

Deviatkin-Papin 2006 seems interesting (White, a GM with considerable experience in this line, played 12. Nh4 g6 13. Rd1 and won a miniature against an IM opponent).
  
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TN
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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #17 - 03/20/09 at 21:54:59
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kylemeister wrote on 03/20/09 at 21:28:30:
MNb wrote on 03/20/09 at 20:48:30:
Dutch IM Paul Boersma thought 1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.d4 cxd4 5.Qxd4 e6 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Qe4 f5 favourable for Black. Is there reason to doubt his verdict, except time?


It seems that the usual view (e.g. in ECO, NCO and Sveshnikov's B22 monograph) has long been that it should be equal or unclear.  

Incidentally I first became aware of 5. Qxd4 due to its advocacy by Ken Smith, who thought 4...e6 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Qe4 f5 7. Qe2 was good for White.  


The critical position in the 5.Qd4 variation arises after 5...e6 6.Nf3 (6.Bd3 is an interesting surprise weapon for quickplay but no more than that) 6...Nc6 7.Qe4 f5 (without this move White has good chances of reaching a += position) 8.Qe2 (8.ef6 Nf6 9.Qh4 d5 is better for Black; White can prevent Black from castling with 10.Bg6, but after 10...Kd7 the king proves quite secure in the centre) 8...Qc7 9.g3 b5! (seizing space on the queenside; the old main line with 9...d6 is also equal, but can easily lead to quite tedious positions) 10.0-0 a5 (a logical followup to 9...b5; Black intends 11...Ba6 with counterplay on the queenside) 11.0-0 Ba6. 

Now White has a few possibilities (12.Re1, 12.Rd1 and 12.Nh4). Anyone who wishes to learn this line with either colour will need Rogozenko's YB 73 survey on this line and Da Costa Junior's contribution in the Forum section of YB 74. (Thanks kylemeister!)

I will give the main line of these analyses here: 12.Nh4 (!? Da Costa Junior, ! Rogozenko) g6 (12...Nce7? 13.Bd5! is the idea; 12...Nde7 13.Rd1 also slightly favours White according to Da Costa Junior, although theory may have changed in the 4 years since his contribution was published) 13.Bd5 ed5 14.Re1 Be7 (14...Bg7 is also fine for Black but 14...Be7 appears more testing) 15.Nf3 0-0 and according to Rogozenko White has to play 16.Nd4! to avoid reaching a worse position.  

@Scott

At club level, the chances of your opponent knowing all of this is very low, especially since the aforementioned Yearbook Surveys are 5 years old. 

« Last Edit: 03/21/09 at 02:11:30 by TN »  

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Scott
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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #16 - 03/20/09 at 21:48:25
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OK, I think I'm starting to get an idea of what I might want to do. Since I have started to favor quiet, closed, positional games as of late, based on what has been laid out in this thread, I think the Closed Sicilian and maybe the transposition into the King's Indian Attack will be what I'm looking for.

I have a current online game in which I played 1 Nf3 and went into a King's Indian Attack. I think so far, so good. I kind of like the style of play it has led to, so I've got a lot to consider.

Thanks a lot, everyone, and I'm still open to more suggestions if anyone has any.
  

My style is somewhere between that of Petrosian and Tal.
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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #15 - 03/20/09 at 21:28:30
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MNb wrote on 03/20/09 at 20:48:30:
Dutch IM Paul Boersma thought 1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.d4 cxd4 5.Qxd4 e6 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Qe4 f5 favourable for Black. Is there reason to doubt his verdict, except time?


It seems that the usual view (e.g. in ECO, NCO and Sveshnikov's B22 monograph) has long been that it should be equal or unclear.   

Incidentally I first became aware of 5. Qxd4 due to its advocacy by Ken Smith, who thought 4...e6 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Qe4 f5 7. Qe2 was good for White.   
  
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MNb
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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #14 - 03/20/09 at 20:48:30
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Dutch IM Paul Boersma thought 1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.d4 cxd4 5.Qxd4 e6 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Qe4 f5 favourable for Black. Is there reason to doubt his verdict, except time?
  

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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #13 - 03/20/09 at 11:29:08
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Scott wrote on 03/18/09 at 03:13:00:
I've dabbled with both the Closed and the c3 Sicilian. I think I would much prefer to play one or both of them as White vs. the Sicilian rather than playing the Open Sicilian. So, my questions for those of you with experience with them are: 1) What are the pros/cons of them as compared to each other? 2) What style of play do each of them generally lead to? 3) Should I only concentrate on one or would you recommend a mixture of the two?


I suggest a combination of the Open Sicilian and Alapin Sicilian. If you decide to learn the Alapin, then Sam Collins's book 'Chess Explained: The Alapin Sicilian' is a must read, as is ChessPublishing. Keep in mind that there are also a few shortcuts for White in the Alapin, such as 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.Bc4!?, 4.Nf3 or 4.d4 cd4 5.Qd4, all of which are quite tricky for an unprepared opponent to face. 

However, at club level and below I would expect 2...d5 to be the move you are most likely to face. Unfortunately I don't know any good shortcuts for White in this line, but the aforementioned sources should be useful in that respect. 

There are several possibilities for formulating an Open Sicilian repertoire - for some options I refer you to the relevant threads in the 'Open Sicilian' section of this Forum. 

If you are still unsure of what variations you wish to learn, then the following advice by Emms should prove handy:

'If you enjoy tactical positions, and you have got a great memory and lots of time to study opening theory then there's every chance that playing 2.Nf3 and 3.d4, and employing the sharpest lines of the Open Sicilian is the way forward. If you prefer quieter positions with less theory, but ones which are open rather than closed, then the c3-Sicilian(sic) (2.c3) may be the best choice. If you like playing 'systems' and you excel in closed positions, then the Closed Sicilian (2.Nc3 followed by 3.g3) could well be the answer.' (The Survival Guide to Competitive Chess, p.134, Everyman Chess, 2007, John Emms) 
  

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chk
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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #12 - 03/20/09 at 09:31:10
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You are correct, in KIA style, you may keep the pawn at f2, go for an early e5 and possibly h4-h5.

2. Ne2 is another idea but I think it may favour completely different set-ups, than those discussed here.

Well, you cannot have all from all worlds. Afterall, you are White and usually will have to reveal your plans first..  Wink
  

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Re: Closed vs c3
Reply #11 - 03/20/09 at 01:58:27
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Yes and I think you can find out yourself: in the Sicilian Black already has played 1...c5. After 1.Nf3 Black hasn't yet, which means that he has a much wider choice. Examples: New York System (= London with colours reversed) and my favourite, a Dutch setup.
I am not that impressed by 2.Nf3 and 3.d3 though. White robs himself voluntarily of any setup with f2-f4.
  

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