(UTC)
Latest Updates:
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › d-Pawn Specials › BDG › Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
(Moderators: CraigEvans, Bibs)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Gah 5...c6, How I hate you..... (Read 23797 times)
Uruk
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 351
Joined: 02/03/09
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #21 - 05/11/09 at 11:26:17
Post Tools
Come on, see page 9 of the "Antidotes to BDG" thread.

You will see ArkheiN, SWJedi and you yourself (!)
agree that 5...Bf5 is at least =+ and that Ne5 is nothing.
ArkheiN admits playing hope chess until that line is widely played.

On page 10 he refers to an older game where White grovels to a draw,
but judging from the timid responses, that was hardly enough to change
the general consensus & evaluation.

The Karpov reference was just to show Ne5 is weak in similar positions,
explaining my initial surprise when it was claimed good.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #20 - 05/11/09 at 02:22:18
Post Tools
Or perhaps your memory is even worse than mine:

1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 (Gunderam variant) 6.Ne5 c6!? 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6 12.Bg2 Nf4 13.Be4 Bd5 14.Qf3 Ng6 15.0–0 b6 16.c4 Ne5 17.Qf4 Nxc4 18.Bxd5 Qxd5 19.Na6 e5 20.Nc7+ Kd8 21.Qxf7 Qxf7 22.Rxf7 Nd6 23.Ne6+ Ke8 24.Rc7 Nb5 25.Rb7 Nd6 26.Rc7 Nb5 27.Rb7 Nd6 = (Schoupal - Bonsai, 1/2:1/2, ChessPublishing.com, forum, 2005) 

You answered by referring to

Sokolov-Karpov, match 1987 (game 3)
and Karpov-Hort, Bugojno 1978

without making clear why exactly these games are relevant and how Bonsai's play should be improved. Could it be that you use unjustified analogue thinking? Anyhow in neither of these two games White played a knight to c5 like Schoupal did.
So your claim that 6.Ne5 is inferior to 6.Bc4 is premature indeed.
What's more, for me it's not really important. I don't play the BDG as White but would like to see the Von Hennig-Milner Barry Gambit 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.f3 exf3 6.Nxf3 proven correct. For some reason I don't think you will claim 1...Bf5 superior to 1...c6 here so we are back at the initial post. This I have trying to address above.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uruk
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 351
Joined: 02/03/09
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #19 - 05/11/09 at 01:34:18
Post Tools

Nope, Ne5 was shown to be bad, unsurprisingly.
The knight is misplaced on e5, it will just get exchanged.

Those goldfish Blackmar players, sigh.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #18 - 05/10/09 at 23:32:06
Post Tools
Except that 5...Bf5 6.Bc4 is not White's best - 6.Ne5 is. Haven't we seen this before? And wasn't the outcome after 5...Bf5 6.Ne5 sufficient compensation? I bet ArkHein at some point will show us how exactly - for the third time.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uruk
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 351
Joined: 02/03/09
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #17 - 05/10/09 at 22:47:52
Post Tools
Anyway 5...Bf5 is better than 5...c6,
because after 6.Bc4 Black can choose,
transpose with 6...c6 or even better 6...e6

So chess is logical after all.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Hand
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 55
Joined: 01/02/09
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #16 - 05/10/09 at 21:09:01
Post Tools
Gambit wrote on 05/10/09 at 07:09:24:
I have played the BDG since 1991, and I have yet to see any Black  player who is going to find all this over-the-board. Correspondence is different, of course.



Expand your base.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #15 - 05/10/09 at 20:23:02
Post Tools
Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/10/09 at 01:21:33:


13.Qe1 Nh5 14.Nb5 Bxe1 15.Nxd4 Ba5 16.Kg1 b5 17.Bb3 Bb6 18.Be3 a6 19.a4 0-0 20.Rae1, about =.  


Black has a few other 13th moves, but White's position looks playable indeed. I have had another look and my pessimism is reduced:

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6 5.Bc4 exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5 7.Bg5 e6 8.Qe2 Bb4 9.0-0
a) 9...Nbd7 10.d5 Qb6+ 11.Kh1 Bxc3 12.dxe6.
b) 9...Be7 10.Rad1 (10.Rae1 Nbd7 and now what?) 0-0 (Nbd7 11.Ne5 Nxe5 12.dxe5 Qb6+ 13.Be3 Bc5 14.exf6 Bxe3+ 15.Kh1 0-0 16.fxg7 Kxg7 17.Rd7) 11.Ne5 h6 12.Nxf7 Rxf7 13.Bxf6 Bxf6 14.g4 Bg6 15.Bxe6 Qb6 16.Nxe4 Bxd4+ 17.Kg2.
c) 9...0-0 10.Bxf6 Qxf6 (gxf6 11.Ne4 Bg6 12.c3 Be7 13.Rae1) 11.Ne4 Qh6 12.Ne5.
Not all these lines are mine; line c was given by FM Bücker but I don't remember whose idea line a was.
All this looks quite decent for White.

  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1397
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #14 - 05/10/09 at 07:09:24
Post Tools
I have played the BDG since 1991, and I have yet to see any Black  player who is going to find all this over-the-board. Correspondence is different, of course.
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1386
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #13 - 05/10/09 at 01:21:33
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 05/09/09 at 21:34:10:
What about 9...Nbd7 10.Ne5 Nxe5!? (0-0 11.Nxd7 is not bad either, but 11.Nxf7 has more style) 11.dxe5 Qd4+ 12.Kh1 Bg4, showing that Black has some tactical resources as well?


13.Qe1 Nh5 14.Nb5 Bxe1 15.Nxd4 Ba5 16.Kg1 b5 17.Bb3 Bb6 18.Be3 a6 19.a4 0-0 20.Rae1, about =.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #12 - 05/09/09 at 21:34:10
Post Tools
What about 9...Nbd7 10.Ne5 Nxe5!? (0-0 11.Nxd7 is not bad either, but 11.Nxf7 has more style) 11.dxe5 Qd4+ 12.Kh1 Bg4, showing that Black has some tactical resources as well?
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1386
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #11 - 05/08/09 at 02:08:55
Post Tools
The line 8...Bb4 was discussed in http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1231025114/180. See reply #185: 

SWJediknight wrote on 02/25/09 at 18:53:07:
Quote:
Instead, 5.Bc4 is the usual response but I doubt that it gives full compensation.  5...exf3 (5...b5!?- Bacrot) 6.Nxf3 Bf5 7.Bg5 (7.Ne5 e6 8.0-0 Bg6! =+) 7...e6 8.Qe2 works fine against 8...Be7 (9.0-0-0 and 10.Rhf1) but I can't find anything convincing against 8...Bb4!.  Perhaps White might be able to find something after 9.a3 Bxc3+ 10.bxc3 Nbd7 11.0-0 0-0.


After 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6 5.Bc4 exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5, your variation may be an acceptable emergency solution. I agree with you that 7.Bg5 e6 8.Qe2 Be7 9.0-0-0! gives White sufficient compensation. Unfortunately your second remark seems also right: 8...Bb4! is better. Instead of your 9.a3 I'd rather try 9.0-0 (obviously White would have preferred to castle long, but at least now he saves a tempo: a2-a3) 9...0-0! (9...Be7!? 10.Rae1 0-0 11.Ne5! unclear; 9...Nbd7 10.Ne5 0-0 11.Nxf7) 10.Bxf6 gxf6 11.Ne4. An interesting position, e. g. 11...Bg6 12.c3 Be7 13.a4 a5 14.g4 Nd7 15.Nh4 Bxe4! 16.Qxe4 f5 17.Nxf5, but this may not be entirely correct, and there are several alternatives for Black. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #10 - 05/07/09 at 22:23:35
Post Tools
8..Fb4 is not a variation, it was more about words too as 9.0-0 ok, but that was already the case after 4.f3 "White: it's enough compensation" 4..exf3 "Black: no there isn't".
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1842
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #9 - 05/07/09 at 22:09:18
Post Tools
Variations speak louder than words Mr. Arkhein.  Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #8 - 05/07/09 at 22:00:23
Post Tools
Quote:
I recall that 10.Rhf1 looked good.  Unfortunately I independently found 8...Bb4! (when looking for ways for Black to thwart White's ideas of queenside castling and kingside play) when I doubt White has enough compensation.


I don't think 8..Bb4 is that strong. The bishop is a good defender, and White has just to castle kingside with his plan of playing his knight on e5, trying to play against the pinned knight. The classical way to play the White side with 7.Ne5 isn't that bad even if it might be =/+ but here I feel it's an improved version for White with the Black bishop on b4. So I really feel that the idea Qe2/Bg5/0-0-0 (or 0-0 if it's the best move) is a quite good way to play the White side here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1842
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Gah 5...c6, How I hate you.....
Reply #7 - 05/07/09 at 21:19:57
Post Tools
Man that sucks. I was really hoping that this one was going to work out. So many nice lines I found after ...Be7 completely thwarted by ...Bb4. Bollocks! 

I was hoping someone was going to step in and be like, "8...Bb4 is bad because of...." but alas, the BDG still sucks. Cheesy Just kidding....
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2025. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge