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Normal Topic Unusual 6. Nxc6 Move Order in Accel. (Read 5518 times)
Spree K
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Re: Unusual 6. Nxc6 Move Order in Accel.
Reply #7 - 04/06/10 at 22:27:36
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The white player who employs 6. Nxc6 bxc6 7. Bc4 system aims to get black player out of his opening book as early as move six to play a game of chess and actually it is hardly a bad move. A search at megabase shows a strong player like Zhang Pengxiang has used it to beat another strong player Inarkeiv in 2007. White's main idea of early knight exchange is only justified by his lust for e5 pawn push so this is why I gave the sample 9.Bf4 line, actually this move appeared in a number of games. Objectively it is not a good move but imo not because of the answer you come up with. The problem with 9....Qb4 is that it a very computer-ish move (Maybe it is suggested by your chess engine) because if you make a few moves, ie. 10.a3 Qa5 (10...Bxc3 is the only alternative, it should be good but white maybe already gets what he wants; a board filled with tactical resources working possibly against Black, note that 11.bxc3 Qxc3 12.Qxc3 Nxc3 13.Be5 is winning for White) 11.Bd2 Bxc3 12.Qxf7 etc. According to engines Black is better but that is not my cup of tea, position looks bit murky to me.
As you see, this line is not without venom. So if Black knows that preventing e5 push starting with 7...Qa5 is essential, he should be fine.


I assume that you mean 11. a3 (after 10. Bb3 Nxe4) since 10. a3 would hang a piece. I won't deny that it is rather unclear but I think Black is able to get a sizeable advantage after for instance after 13. Qxf7+ Kd8 14. bxc3 Nxd2 15. Kxd2 Qg5+! picking up the g-pawn. 16. Kd1 Qxg2 17. Re1 Re8 18. Kc1 (maybe White has something better here?) Qg5+ 19. Kb2 Qf6 20. Qc4 Rb8 and it seems to me that Black is clearly better. I don't really see the appeal of this line compared to the main line 6. Be3 which is certainly more testing as well as being complicated.
  
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Kubi
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Re: Unusual 6. Nxc6 Move Order in Accel.
Reply #6 - 04/06/10 at 19:19:48
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Spree K wrote on 04/05/10 at 21:03:10:
I assume that you are referring to the line 6. Nxc6 bxc6 7. Bc4. It seems that this is a pretty clear concession. White gives up a quite unfavorable pawn structure in order to get an initiative that peters out quickly. For instance after the line Bilge suggested 7...Qa5 8. Qf3 Nf6 9. Bf4(?) allows the typical stroke 9...Qb4! (10. Bb3 Nxe4 and Black is up a clear pawn). I don't quite understand why this line should pose any particular problems for Black as long as he doesn't allow some sort of cheap tactic. I think there are numerous other ways for Black to equalize as well.


The white player who employs 6. Nxc6 bxc6 7. Bc4 system aims to get black player out of his opening book as early as move six to play a game of chess and actually it is hardly a bad move. A search at megabase shows a strong player like Zhang Pengxiang has used it to beat another strong player Inarkeiv in 2007. White's main idea of early knight exchange is only justified by his lust for e5 pawn push so this is why I gave the sample 9.Bf4 line, actually this move appeared in a number of games. Objectively it is not a good move but imo not because of the answer you come up with. The problem with 9....Qb4 is that it a very computer-ish move (Maybe it is suggested by your chess engine) because if you make a few moves, ie. 10.a3 Qa5 (10...Bxc3 is the only alternative, it should be good but white maybe already gets what he wants; a board filled with tactical resources working possibly against Black, note that 11.bxc3 Qxc3 12.Qxc3 Nxc3 13.Be5 is winning for White) 11.Bd2 Bxc3 12.Qxf7 etc. According to engines Black is better but that is not my cup of tea, position looks bit murky to me.
As you see, this line is not without venom. So if Black knows that preventing e5 push starting with 7...Qa5 is essential, he should be fine.
  
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Paddy
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Re: Unusual 6. Nxc6 Move Order in Accel.
Reply #5 - 04/05/10 at 23:59:17
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trumpet83 wrote on 02/28/10 at 13:49:56:
I can't find any books covering this line to give any analysis as to why this move order is unfavorable since it isn't mentioned anywhere.

1.e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Nxc6 dxc6 7. Bc4

Silman's book only gives 5. Nxc6, 7. Nxc6, and 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Be3 (why couldn't Nxc6 be played instead?) Nf6 7. Nxc6

That being said, I was surprised to find a bunch of recent games in the database that use the move order with 6.Nxc6 so apparently it's happening more often. 



The line 1.e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd 4. Nxd4 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Nxc6 dxc6 7. Bc4, despite being played twice by the great Nona Gaprindashvili in the final of the Women's World Championship, would probably only be seen nowadays in the games of inexperienced players, since the exchange on c6 "promotes" the black b-pawn into a c-pawn, for no compensation other than possibly surprise. Nevertheless, it has been played many times and is probably close to equal with good play. 

One point of the line is that the plausible 7...e6 8 0-0 d5? runs into 9 exd5 cxd5 10 Nxd5! exd5 11 Bxd5 and if 11...Rb8 12 Bxf7+ wins. Or 8...Ne7 9 Qd6.

Black's best lines seem to be:

a) the simple 7...d6 preparing 7...Nf6. Then once Black has castled he should be fine and can start thinking about using the b-file or mobilizing his central majority. It is worth noting that then 8 0-0 Nf6 9 e5, which looks a bit nasty at first, can be answered by 9...dxe5! since after 10 Qxd8+ Kxd8 the move 11 Bxf7 loses a piece after 11...e6! trapping the bishop, which can then be snapped up by ...Ke7.

b) 7...Qa5 attacking c3 and also discouraging e4-e5. This was the choice of probably the strongest player ever to have faced this line with Black: Oleg Romanishin. 7...Qc7 also covering e5 is playable but less pointed.

c) 7...Rb8!? seems playable, impeding the development of the Bc1. There is an interesting gambit line then after 8 Qf3!? Nf6! 9 e5 Nd5, e.g. 10 Nxd5 cxd5 11 Bxd5 e6 12 B moves Qa5+, or 11 Qxd5 0-0.

d) 7...Bxc3+!? Personally I do not like to give up the bishop like this, but by analogy with the fairly popular line 6 Nb3 Bxc3+ 7 bxc3 Nf6 it is probably playable.
  
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Spree K
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Re: Unusual 6. Nxc6 Move Order in Accel.
Reply #4 - 04/05/10 at 21:03:10
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I assume that you are referring to the line 6. Nxc6 bxc6 7. Bc4. It seems that this is a pretty clear concession. White gives up a quite unfavorable pawn structure in order to get an initiative that peters out quickly. For instance after the line Bilge suggested 7...Qa5 8. Qf3 Nf6 9. Bf4(?) allows the typical stroke 9...Qb4! (10. Bb3 Nxe4 and Black is up a clear pawn). I don't quite understand why this line should pose any particular problems for Black as long as he doesn't allow some sort of cheap tactic. I think there are numerous other ways for Black to equalize as well.
  
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Kubi
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Re: Unusual 6. Nxc6 Move Order in Accel.
Reply #3 - 04/05/10 at 08:21:31
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A very interesting point is brought up by Trumpet83. Being an AD player myself, I think I understand his question.
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Nxc6 bxc6  (...dxc6 is hard to defend) 8.e5 is a popular line which once thought to be the refutation of AD. Now very sharp game ensues after 8...Nd5 9.Nxd5 cxd5 10.Qxd5 Rb8 ; while 8...Ng8 is very solid and the more popular choice. This is all known theory.
On the other hand, althoug similar, the move order Trumpet83 mentions sidesteps this variation and these kind of positions.
1.e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd 4. Nxd4 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Nxc6 dxc6 7. Bc4
Now there are two options.
A.
7...Nf6 8.e5 Ng8 (Nd5 now is clearly out of option) 9.Qf3 f5 10.Bf4 which is very good for White.
Here I would like to point out a pecualirity. Having troubles against Maroczy Bind I once tried to find a solution and came up with what Silman calls "Semi-Accelerated Dragon" Namely, 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 now if White plays a normal move like 6.Be3 then 6....Bg7 and we are back in AD territory and we succesfuly avoid Maroczy bind. But the problem is, if White plays ambitiously with 6.Nxc6 bxc6 (6....dxc6 is again hard to defend) 7.e5 Ng8 (please note that 7...Nd5 here is useless because Bishop is not at g7 yet) 8.Bc4 Bg7 9.Qf3 f5 10.Bf4 and surprise ! We have the same position on the board. Because of this system, which is very hard to play with Black, I learnt to deal with Maroczy bind and would suggect the same thng aspiring AD players.
B.
7...Qa5 now that e5 square is dealt with, Black can continue with normal development, ie. Nf6, 0-0 etc. An important trick is if 8.Qf3 Nf6 9.Bf4 (insisting on e5 advance) 0-0 ! 10.e5 Nh5 gives Black an edge.
The point is this nuance is not given in two AD books I own ; Accelerated Dragons by Jeremy Silman & John Donaldson and Starting Out: The Accelerated Dragon by Andrew Greet. This is why at the first instance I said I understand why Trumpet83 brought up his question.Another point with his move order is now the game develops schemes not similar to normal AD positions. Altough black seems to be doing fine, he has to know how to play those positions else he might experince difficulties.
I like both books anyway, especially I would recommend the book from IM Greet without hesitation to anyone who considers playind AD.
  
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Re: Unusual 6. Nxc6 Move Order in Accel.
Reply #2 - 02/28/10 at 21:54:36
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as far as I know you can not go by just one book. There are different books about opening. Such as chess Opening for black, Explained written by Alburt, Dzindzichashvili and Perelshteyn. another good book on the accelerated dragon is "The Sicilian Accelerated Dragon" (much more complete) written by Peter Heine Nielsen and Carsten Hansen.

5.Nxc6 bxc6 fights for advantage (5...dxc6 is equal).
5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Nxc6 bxc6 is good for black who has the option of playing d5 (6...dxc6 looks to be no more than equal.)
5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Nxc6 bxc6 8.e5 (hits the "Nf6". That's the difference!.) here is played:
8...Nd5 and 8...Ng8.
You need to get the right book buddy.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Unusual 6. Nxc6 Move Order in Accel.
Reply #1 - 02/28/10 at 15:52:32
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Generally speaking in both Dragon and Accelerated Dragon the move Nxc6 is often not a good move since it strenthens blacks grip in centre and opens the bfile for any black rook. If white tries to shield the b pawn with the Bishop the c pawn can sometimes even advance down the board attack the Bishop. Sometimes black can even play Be6 allowing a double pawn to take even more control of the centre.

However there are times when the move is good and that is when white has a good follow up. In the particeller position white has no such thing after something like Qc7 or d6 and carefull play (make shure that white cannot play e5 at favorable moments) black is already at least equal.
  
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trumpet83
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Unusual 6. Nxc6 Move Order in Accel.
02/28/10 at 13:49:56
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I can't find any books covering this line to give any analysis as to why this move order is unfavorable since it isn't mentioned anywhere. 

1.e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd 4. Nxd4 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Nxc6 dxc6 7. Bc4

Silman's book only gives 5. Nxc6, 7. Nxc6, and 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Be3 (why couldn't Nxc6 be played instead?) Nf6 7. Nxc6

That being said, I was surprised to find a bunch of recent games in the database that use the move order with 6.Nxc6 so apparently it's happening more often. 

  
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