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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian? (Read 61993 times)
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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #42 - 01/06/12 at 06:26:17
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I used to play 2...e6 and transpose to the French Advance after 3. d4 d5 4. e5 or a reversed type of Petroff after 4. exd5 exd5 that cannot possibly be better for White. Other than that, perhaps either 2...d5 or 2...Nf6 are the other best replies against 2. c3.
  

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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #41 - 01/05/12 at 23:48:57
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I too think d7-d5 is the answer.  While objectively the positions after 4. exd5 exd5 are not advantageous, they are not easy to play, and Black often has attacking opportunities, or chances to misplace White's pieces.  It's basically an Exchange French with White committed to c2-c3.  It can't be bad.  And against weaker players, well, Black can play in almost any part of the board.  That is worth a lot.  The very symmetrical nature of the position denies clear play to either side but also opens up the entire board.

  
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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #40 - 10/17/11 at 17:38:26
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Experts on the Anti-Sicilians includes a chapter on 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 d5 4.e5 d4.
Seems okay for black. Often compelx positions, no white advantage to be found.
  
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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #39 - 10/08/11 at 19:09:37
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An interesting Eduerdas Rozentalis's game (Today)

[Event "Oslo chess international"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2011.10.08"]
[Round "8.6"]
[White "Rozentalis, eduardas"]
[Black "Van Eijk, Sander"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B22"]
[WhiteElo "2575"]
[BlackElo "2392"]
[PlyCount "5"]
[EventDate "2011.10.08"]
[SourceDate "2011.10.08"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. d4 Bg4 6. Be2 cxd4 7. cxd4 e6 8. Nc3 Qa5 9. Qb3 Qb4 10. Be3 Nf6 11. h3 Bh5 12. O-O Bd6 13. Nb5 Bb8 14. g4 Bg6 15. Ne5 Be4 16. Rfc1 Qxb3 17. axb3 O-O 18. g5 Nxe5 19. dxe5 Nd5 20. Bc5 Rd8 21. Bd6 Nf4 22. Bf1 Bc6 23. Bxb8 Bxb5 24. Bxa7 Bxf1 25. Kxf1 Nd3 26. Rc7 b5 27. Ra5 Nf4 28. Rc1 h6 29. b4 hxg5 30. Bb6 Rac8 31. Rxc8 Rxc8 32. Bc5 Rb8 33. Ra3 Kh7 34. Ke1 Kg6 35. Kd2 Kf5 36. Ra7 f6 37. Rd7 Nxh3 38. Ba7 Ra8 39. Rxg7 Kxe5 40. Rb7 Rd8 41. Kc3 Rd5 42. Bc5 Ke4 43. Rxb5 Nxf2 44. Rb6 Rf5 45. Rxe6 Kd5 46. Rd6 Ke5 47. Rd8 Ne4 48. Kc4 Rf1 49. Bd4 Ke6 50. Re8 Kf5 51. Kd5 Re1 52. Rg8 Nd2 53. b5 Nb3 54. Bc3 Re7 55. b6 g4 56. Bb4 Rf7 57. Bd6 Rh7 58. Bc7 Na5 59. b4 Nb7 60. Kc6 1-0


he play 13.Nb5!? (a novelty?) intead of the usual 13.Rfd1
  

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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #38 - 04/23/11 at 07:55:19
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I mostly agree with Ametanoitos, but a couple of remarks:

Ametanoitos wrote on 04/22/11 at 22:27:20:
I learnt it in 15 minutes and when i find myself forgeting the theory i see that i always find decent moves! 


In a recent update, J. Shaw says about a position in this variation were GM Vajda scored 5/5 with white from an equal position: " Black players don't need a novelty, they need to become comfortable playing the middlegame". And that's exactly what I feel when playing these lines. Even after spending a lot of time studying the opening I find the midlegames not easy to play. Contrary to Ametanoitos, but  like Vajda oponents, I haven't developped a good feeling of these positions, not yet. But I hope Aagaard chapter will help me.
I find the main line with Nc6+d6 easier to understand and to play for equality. But I will insist on learning this e6 line because, as Rogozenko states in is "anti-anti-sicilian" book, it gives more chances to play for a win.
  
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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #37 - 04/22/11 at 22:27:20
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kylemeister wrote on 04/22/11 at 17:01:30:
Ametanoitos, I sometimes wonder if there is anyone who has more opening books and videos than you do.  Is this "known improvement for White that keeps the dynamic balance" 1. e4 c5 2. d4 cd 3. c3 dc 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 d6 6. Bc4 a6 7. 0-0 Nf6 8. b4 e6 9. a3?


I know for sure that IM Ashot Nadanian has more books than i do. His collection numbers nearly 1000 books! I have probably around 200. Yes, the 9.a3 is the move as i know. I haven't analyzed it in depth though. My preliminary examinations says that White is equal.

@topandkas: In general, Black cannot easily play for the win if White does want to draw. This is a known fact. If Black wants to try, then best is to play 2...Nf6 imo (i don't really trust those 2...d6 ideas as i think that White keeps a slight edge). The system i like after 2...Nf6 is 3.e5 Nd5 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nf3 e6 followed by ...d6+Nc6. This is the system that GM Aagaard promotes in his article in "Experts Vs Anti-Sicilians". Are there any dead equal variations? Yes, there are unfortunately but there are Black deviations on the way, probably not 100% sound but you can start from a solid base and then try to deviate and play for the win. 

So, 2...Nf6 and then e6+d6+Nc6 is a practical choice (it can be used after 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 or 2...e6 3.c3), it can be used to avoid the Morra and seems sound and quite ambitious as well. Also, it is quite easy to remember and play. I learnt it in 15 minutes and when i find myself forgeting the theory i see that i always find decent moves! 

Another choice of course is the 2...Nf6+d6+Nc6 (no early ...e6) as Tony promotes in his Kalashnikov book and it is ofcourse the main, well known line, which is of course very ambitious but cannot be used via a 2.Nf3 e6 move order.
  
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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #36 - 04/22/11 at 17:10:43
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I share same concerns as Stigma. If one wants to play the sicilan with 2. e6 and one is not content with a draw as Black I really consider 3.c3 to be a real challenge. Ametanoitos, would you like to share your thoughts on this and how you think Black can best play for a win after the moves 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3  ?

As for 1.e4 c5 2.c3 I agree, that 2...Nf6 is the best move and gives Black reasonable chances to play for a win.
  
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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #35 - 04/22/11 at 17:01:30
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Ametanoitos, I sometimes wonder if there is anyone who has more opening books and videos than you do.  Is this "known improvement for White that keeps the dynamic balance" 1. e4 c5 2. d4 cd 3. c3 dc 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 d6 6. Bc4 a6 7. 0-0 Nf6 8. b4 e6 9. a3?
  
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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #34 - 04/22/11 at 16:37:25
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Exactly, i meant from 2...e6 and from 2...Nc6. In the Morra issue you can find some GMs that has fallen victims of some amateurs, an example i have in mind Wojo. And Simlam's quotation is faulty. Maybe he cannot understand why White is offering a pawn but i certainly understand. Black's 1...c5 is not a developing move in the classical sense, so White sacs a pawn to emphasize that issue and gain even more development advantage. If you see for example the Chessbase DVD on the Morra by Lawrence Trent, you'll see that things are not so simlpe. Even in the so-called refutation system that is given in Ftacnik's book, there is a known improvement for White that keeps the dynamic balance (mentioned by Watson i believe in one of his MCO books?).

Anyway, if 2.c3 Nf6 is best (and it is imo), i see no reason why not use it against 2.d4 as well. At least from a phycological point of view it is a small victory for Black. In a theoretical perspective i really don't believe that the acceptance is better than declining. I may be wrong of course, but i am still not convinced by the various Black's set-ups in the Morra.

Stigma, give me position that you know that White has some chances in the "Aagaard system" to see what the man says about it.
  
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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #33 - 04/22/11 at 13:17:33
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Ametanoitos wrote on 04/22/11 at 08:15:41:
If you are a subscriber at the Anti-Sicilian section of chesspublishing you'll see that GM Shaw has spotted improvements over Palliser's analysis that make things happier for the White's side. 

Personaly i'd go for sure with the 2...Nf6 option and then play e6+d6 but not a la Delchev whith Bd7-Bc6-Nd7, but simply a la Aagaard (see "experts vs Anti-Sicilians) with ...Nc6. There is also analysis on this in the Anti-Sicilian section of chesspub if i am not mistaken. The e6+d6 aproach makes the system applicable from two different move orders of the Sicilian 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 and 2...e6 and Black can play for the win. This gives the added benefit of avoiding the Morra Gambit, which is not a big thing theoretically but in practice can cause some troubles.


I just bought Palliser's Anti-Sicilians book in eBook version to be able to study the ...d5 lines more easily (i already had it in paperback). I will certainly look at any new ideas from White since 2007 as well.

It was my impression that the ...Nf6 with ...e6 and ...d6 lines contain some extremely drawish lines, or even lines where only White has some small winning chances. If Agaard has "fixed" that in the new book, it's great news!

P.S. I don't understand how that line is reached from 1.e5 c5 2.Nf3 d6; if 3.c3 Nf6 4.e5 Black simply takes on e5 doesn't he? Probably you meant 2.Nf3 e6 and 2.Nf3 Nc6.

P.P.S. I don't need to avoid the Morra. To quote Jeremy Silman (from memory): "Now, for reasons I still don't understand, White is offering me a pawn and giving me every chance of scoring the full point!"  Wink
  

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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #32 - 04/22/11 at 08:15:41
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If you are a subscriber at the Anti-Sicilian section of chesspublishing you'll see that GM Shaw has spotted improvements over Palliser's analysis that make things happier for the White's side. 

Personaly i'd go for sure with the 2...Nf6 option and then play e6+d6 but not a la Delchev whith Bd7-Bc6-Nd7, but simply a la Aagaard (see "experts vs Anti-Sicilians) with ...Nc6. There is also analysis on this in the Anti-Sicilian section of chesspub if i am not mistaken. The e6+d6 aproach makes the system applicable from two different move orders of the Sicilian 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 and 2...e6 and Black can play for the win. This gives the added benefit of avoiding the Morra Gambit, which is not a big thing theoretically but in practice can cause some troubles.
  
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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #31 - 03/16/11 at 10:28:19
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MNb wrote on 03/16/11 at 09:38:11:
fling wrote on 03/16/11 at 09:23:22:
If 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.d4 Bg4, this transposes to the line given by Arcticmonkey

It doesn't. It leads to a protest of your opponent.
Probably you mean 2...Nc6 but Stigma already stated that he wants to stick to 2...e6.


I agree! It might work in a blitz game, though Smiley

Sorry, I should stick to posting when I am not at work! I have mixed up the lines for sure!
  
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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #30 - 03/16/11 at 09:38:11
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fling wrote on 03/16/11 at 09:23:22:
If 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.d4 Bg4, this transposes to the line given by Arcticmonkey

It doesn't. It leads to a protest of your opponent.
Probably you mean 2...Nc6 but Stigma already stated that he wants to stick to 2...e6.
  

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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #29 - 03/16/11 at 09:23:22
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Stigma wrote on 03/15/11 at 21:59:45:
@Arcticmonkey:
I do indeed play the Kan, though i have an interest in the Taimanov and the Scheveningen as well. All share similar pawn structures and all can be reached from 2...e6, so I really want to stick with this move! I have played some ...Nc6 Sicilians in the past, but I believe the Rossolimo 3.Bb5 is White's very best Anti-Sicilian and I really want to avoid it. 3.c3 is annoying against either 2...e6 or 2...Nc6, but i would rather have one problem than two.

fling wrote on 03/13/11 at 10:05:43:


Since I play the Kan, I can add some short notes to this great post.

Btw, I actually think that 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3. b3 is the hardest to meet, because many of the good systems against b3 are based on ..e5 and d6.

After 3.d3, Black has many options to choose from, and I think that here Nf3 is often a bit premature, since White will often have to move the knight to be able to play f4. The positions will usually be a KIA. I normally go for the ...g6 and ...Nge7 set-up followed by ...Bg7, ...Rb8 and b5, but have been looking at actually playing ...Nf6 and and early ...b5 without ...Rb8. This is recommended in the Easiest Sicilian, and it looks good indeed. Whatever you choose, there is lots of play in these positions.

Anyway, 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 is a bit tricky, since the systems with an early ...Bg4 are indeed ruled out, especially the ...Nc6 and ...Bg4 lines in the ...d5 variation. However, as mentioned 3....Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 can lead to pretty ok (=winning chances) positions for Black, but only if White wants to. That is the same problem for many openings, though.


I don't think 3.b3 is a big problem. How does White achieve anything against the Taimanov style 3.b3 a6 4.Bb2 Nc6 5.g3 d5? All the lines I've looked at there seem comfortable for Black.

Against the KIA I don't mind going French with 3...d5 or 3...Nc6/4...d5. Btw. I've found that the most dangerous move order for White against a French setup is with Qe2 instead of Nbd2, so 3...d5 4.Qe2!? and 3...Nc6 4.g3 (still keeping Black guessing) 4...d5 5.Qe2. If Black plays an early ...g6 instead White can switch plans wiith d3-d4 or an early h4.

For 3.c3 the Delchev repertoire (Safest Sicilian) was mentioned earlier, but last time I played that I got an extremely lifeless and drawish position against a lower-rated player, and lost when I tried too hard to complicate. That was what spurred me to start the thread in the first place.


Interesting. I have never tried your line with ...a6 and a quick d5. Will be next time. My tries have usually been with ...b6, and ...Bb7. White can play d4 against this, getting some chances of a good Maroczy bind. However, most seem to want to keep the position closed, starting that way.

I agree that Qe2 is indeed interesting. I have played this myself as White. Most players are more used to Re1 in these lines, but since often Qe2 form part of overprotecting e5, it is often not bad to play it early. A KIA with c3 gives Black a hook to play against, compared to lines with the pawn on c2 and therefore the variations Delchev gives seems pretty decent.

After my last post I checked Palliser's book on Anti-sicilians, and he recommends a line I looked at long time ago in Chandler's Complete c3 sicilian. I am at work right now, but IIRC:
If 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.d4 Bg4, this transposes to the line given by Arcticmonkey and this is more unbalanced and seems good for Black to me. The independent tries are usually when White takes on c5, but Palliser covers that too.

I think McDonald (How to play against e4) covers some other tries for Black (read not ...Qb6 or ...Nh6) in the advance French. Can't remember what they are, though.
  
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Re: Best line for winning chances against c3 Sicilian?
Reply #28 - 03/16/11 at 00:13:57
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MNb wrote on 03/15/11 at 23:33:52:

Perhaps the solution is to change your approach of the French then. I already have given you two options to play for a win against the French Advance.
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 d5 4.e5 Nc6 5.d4 Nh6 and 5...Qb6 and 6...Nh6 offer Black fair winning chances.
Have you consulted Johansson's page on unboring the c3-Sicilian? I really think this is your best option.

I will take a close look at "Unboring the c3 Sicilian", honest! I've even printed it out. I just got bogged down these past two months looking at the French itself instead of the Sicilian. I'll return to the c3 Sicilian when I know enough French to play it confidently (not too far off).

Again, I'm happy with the French Advance; booking up on 5...Qb6 6.a3 c4 and 6.Be2 Nh6 now. It's 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 that bothers me. It will be either 4...exd5 a la Miezis/Johansson or 4...Qxd5 I guess.
« Last Edit: 03/16/11 at 04:17:54 by Stigma »  

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