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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition) (Read 20884 times)
Jay
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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #31 - 02/06/11 at 04:47:58
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If Avrukh's work always included g3, then I could incorporate some of his lines into my play.  I do enjoy attacking play, but the position is what dictates play slow or attack, right?
  
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TN
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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #30 - 02/06/11 at 01:28:04
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If you want a tactically sharp/aggressive repertoire with White, then you can do better than 1.c4 or Avrukh's repertoire. However I really don't see any reason why you should change your repertoire at the moment when the English is working well for you. But working through the Attacking Manuals is a good idea. 

If you're sure about switching to 1.d4 then I suggest playing 1.d4 openings from a 1.c4 move order at first, which will allow you to steadily develop a 1.d4 repertoire. For example, you can play 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.e4 d6 4.d4 once you have a prepared answer to the KID, then you can learn 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.cd5 Nd5 4.Nf3 g6 5.d4 against the Grunfeld, and so on. In the long-term, you'll even be able to play 1.Nf3 to reach certain 1.d4 openings while avoiding others, and reach English positions while avoiding 1.c4 e5.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #29 - 02/05/11 at 19:53:35
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This is the sort of thing which (still) puzzles me.  If you are something like USCF class C strength, and are starting to play 1. d4, I don't know why you would be buying those Avrukh tomes and planning to "incorporate them into your repertoire."  We're talking about books which (1) in the view of IM John Donaldson, those of USCF Expert strength "will definitely have their hands full" with; (2) cover only certain systems of a rather sophisticated nature, such as the Catalan and the Slow Slav.
  
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Jay
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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #28 - 02/05/11 at 17:56:37
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TN wrote on 02/05/11 at 05:38:25:
moahunter wrote on 02/05/11 at 03:34:13:
BPaulsen wrote on 01/30/11 at 04:51:26:

It seems like whatever first move the person goes with should just play to their strengths, and if they're ever going to get anywhere they'll need to be able to play everything in the attempt to produce practical problems for the opponent.

I think the whole point of opening with white is to get in a position you understand and can exploit better than your opponent. I don't think that can be done with one repertoire based on one opening move even if you have prepared for "everything". At a very high level, each skilled opponent needs to be considered, and the approach modified for them. Even at club level if you trot out the same stuff all the time, you will quickly find any opening advantage is lost against those who have played you. I can't remember who wrote it, but in some respects, the best "repertoire" is to not have a repertoire. We aren't computers, and our opponents aren't either. It is as much about the psychology of a fight as it is about looking for some scientific "plus", this is why a "Karpov" who hates opening theory can become world champion. Due to this, I think the best chess opening books aren't the ones where the author feels a need to amend it in the "hope" of somehow trying to "beat" the top players / latest theory, in the game.


Or you can adopt one of my approaches: Have a narrow repertoire for each tournament, but drastically change it for the next tournament.  Cheesy 

If you played 1.d4 exclusively in your last tournament, switch to 1.e4 exclusively in your next. Your opponents will be expecting you to switch back to 1.d4 until you play 1.e4 three times in a row. 

There is one catch of this method. You have to do a lot of work.


This is probably less work than trying to figure out the potential weak points in your opponents various repertoires.  I have been playing 1.c4 for years.  I recently decided to add 1.d4 to the mix.  I am sure I will be stronger overall for this approach, but I think I have peaked and will be peaked until I start to add new attacking patterns to my knowledge base.  That is why I am working on Aagaard's Attacking Manuals before seriously trying to incorporate Avrukh's 1.d4 volumes into my repertoire.
  
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TN
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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #27 - 02/05/11 at 05:38:25
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moahunter wrote on 02/05/11 at 03:34:13:
BPaulsen wrote on 01/30/11 at 04:51:26:

It seems like whatever first move the person goes with should just play to their strengths, and if they're ever going to get anywhere they'll need to be able to play everything in the attempt to produce practical problems for the opponent.

I think the whole point of opening with white is to get in a position you understand and can exploit better than your opponent. I don't think that can be done with one repertoire based on one opening move even if you have prepared for "everything". At a very high level, each skilled opponent needs to be considered, and the approach modified for them. Even at club level if you trot out the same stuff all the time, you will quickly find any opening advantage is lost against those who have played you. I can't remember who wrote it, but in some respects, the best "repertoire" is to not have a repertoire. We aren't computers, and our opponents aren't either. It is as much about the psychology of a fight as it is about looking for some scientific "plus", this is why a "Karpov" who hates opening theory can become world champion. Due to this, I think the best chess opening books aren't the ones where the author feels a need to amend it in the "hope" of somehow trying to "beat" the top players / latest theory, in the game.


Or you can adopt one of my approaches: Have a narrow repertoire for each tournament, but drastically change it for the next tournament.  Cheesy 

If you played 1.d4 exclusively in your last tournament, switch to 1.e4 exclusively in your next. Your opponents will be expecting you to switch back to 1.d4 until you play 1.e4 three times in a row. 

There is one catch of this method. You have to do a lot of work.
  

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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #26 - 02/05/11 at 03:34:13
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BPaulsen wrote on 01/30/11 at 04:51:26:

It seems like whatever first move the person goes with should just play to their strengths, and if they're ever going to get anywhere they'll need to be able to play everything in the attempt to produce practical problems for the opponent.

I think the whole point of opening with white is to get in a position you understand and can exploit better than your opponent. I don't think that can be done with one repertoire based on one opening move even if you have prepared for "everything". At a very high level, each skilled opponent needs to be considered, and the approach modified for them. Even at club level if you trot out the same stuff all the time, you will quickly find any opening advantage is lost against those who have played you. I can't remember who wrote it, but in some respects, the best "repertoire" is to not have a repertoire. We aren't computers, and our opponents aren't either. It is as much about the psychology of a fight as it is about looking for some scientific "plus", this is why a "Karpov" who hates opening theory can become world champion. Due to this, I think the best chess opening books aren't the ones where the author feels a need to amend it in the "hope" of somehow trying to "beat" the top players / latest theory, in the game.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #25 - 01/30/11 at 04:51:26
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These days I'm not all that sure 1. g3/1. Nf3/1. c4/1. d4/1. e4 are all that different from eachother.

It's not like black is struggling of late to show equality in some response to each of them. Just off the top of my head there's the Petroff against 1. e4, the NID/QGD complex against 1. d4, 1. c4 e5, and the Hedgehog versus 1. Nf3. That's just the bare minimum, without even focusing on other possibilities, of which there are many, and anyone reading this post will be able to list quite a few more where white is hard pressed to demonstrate much of anything (I'm too lazy to list all of them that come to mind, but I can think of at least 3 for every white first move).

It seems like whatever first move the person goes with should just play to their strengths, and if they're ever going to get anywhere they'll need to be able to play everything in the attempt to produce practical problems for the opponent.
  

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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #24 - 01/30/11 at 02:47:42
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Neric wrote on 01/28/11 at 16:35:36:
Jay wrote on 01/27/11 at 16:56:39:
Markovich wrote on 12/19/10 at 04:30:42:
It must be that P. is wrong about something, since the Great K. now says this is White's One True Path.

Seems to me that Repertoires are a matter of taste and that there is not any one true path.


This statement is true in openings that do not lead to any advantage for white. If everything you can play is just as good, you better play something that suits your style.

My thesis is that white has no advantage after 1.c4, therefore 1.c4 and 1.d4 followed by 2.Bf4 are equal alternatives. The only difference is that black has the chance to make more mistakes after 1.c4.


Personally I think that 1.c4 is a better move than that.  Mednis said that it was one of White's "perfect" moves, along with 1.d4, 1.e4, 1.Nf3 and 1.g3 (no others are perfect, according to St. Edmar).  I'm somewhat inclined to that school of thought, though I have a sneaking suspicion that 1.c4 ranks somewhat below 1.d4 in objective strength, just because of 1...e5 and 1...c5.  Still I wouldn't say that White isn't White after 1.c4; he is.
  

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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #23 - 01/28/11 at 16:35:36
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Jay wrote on 01/27/11 at 16:56:39:
Markovich wrote on 12/19/10 at 04:30:42:
It must be that P. is wrong about something, since the Great K. now says this is White's One True Path.

Seems to me that Repertoires are a matter of taste and that there is not any one true path.


This statement is true in openings that do not lead to any advantage for white. If everything you can play is just as good, you better play something that suits your style.

My thesis is that white has no advantage after 1.c4, therefore 1.c4 and 1.d4 followed by 2.Bf4 are equal alternatives. The only difference is that black has the chance to make more mistakes after 1.c4.
  
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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #22 - 01/27/11 at 16:56:39
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Markovich wrote on 12/19/10 at 04:30:42:
It must be that P. is wrong about something, since the Great K. now says this is White's One True Path.

Seems to me that Repertoires are a matter of taste and that there is not any one true path.
  
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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #21 - 12/20/10 at 20:41:57
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Quote:
Fair enough.  In equal fairness though, I don't think I ever argued so much for Palliser's particular recommendations as I did for the soundness of the Symmetrical with the early ...Nc6.  Whatever their objective merit, which I frankly do not know, I was using Palliser's lines as examples.  3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 and now 4...Qb6 is one way for Black to play, and I don't concede it's worse for Black, but Black has other ways of playing.

I am grateful for your sharing your ideas, especially about which lines are critical.


Obviously it's sound in that it doesn't lose by force. Unless an opening produces +/- regardless of black's choices after choosing it, it's not unsound.

Our discussion centered on 4...Qb6 last time, and Palliser was invoked. Wink

My original point in this discussion was to point out 3...e5 isn't that big of a deal, and that white has very real ways of striving for an edge. It should not discourage white from playing 3. Nc3 anymore than 3...g6, 3...Nd4, or 3...Nf6 does.

Matemax wrote on 12/20/10 at 14:14:56:

I am sure he has no (k)nightmares - he is just cool enought to write += even if there isn't one  Grin


I don't think he's force-fit so much as theory simply evolved in most of his recommendations - chess is in all likelihood a draw, so the search for += (white) or = (black) is still going on. Going through whatever is the most up-to-date volume:

Volume 1A) Anti-Grunfeld there's no += in his recommendation.

Volume 1B) Bayonet KID there's no += in his recommendation.

Volume 2) Hedgehog there's no += in his recommendation.

Volume 3) 1. Nf3 c5 2. c4 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. g3, 1. Nf3 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. e4 e5 there's no += in his recommendation.

Volume 4) QGA, Slav, Anti-Moscow there's no += in his recommendation.

Volume 5) Tarrasch Defense, 5. Bg5 QGD there's no += in his recommendation.

I think he was force-fitting the 5. Bg5 QGD evaluation even back then, but yeah, theory has evolved in a lot of key lines. Of course, some of it still has relevance in a lot of sidelines.

I expect a lot of changes in the 3A/3B/4/5 this go-around. I expect if he ever did a third edition there'd be changes again, but obviously he never will so that task falls on someone else.

Every serious student can't rely solely on his recommendations. Aside from the laziness it implies, there's always subtleties to be found for both colors.
  

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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #20 - 12/20/10 at 14:31:33
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Markovich wrote on 12/19/10 at 04:30:42:

You may be right about the merits of the case (though I don't concede that), but it doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the latest version of Chess Truth that it replaces a slightly older version of Chess Truth that turns out not to be true.  It has a funny smell, you know?  "Theory has moved on," indeed, but how trustworthy can this theory be?  Does it reflect Chess Truth or merely White's latest hopes?


I have read the entire thread and I am a bit lost about your point Markovich. You normally articulate well reasoned cases, but this one just leaves my scratching my head here, unless you are being facetious. I mean, chess isn't solved. Top players and theoreticians are in a continual search to prove an opening advantage for White and whenever a  called "+=" is found, it is always fleeting.
  

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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #19 - 12/20/10 at 14:14:56
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Markovich wrote on 12/19/10 at 04:30:42:
I'm not making fun of you, just of Khalifman's project, which strikes me as both sysiphean and ridiculous.  My idea of Hell on Earth would be continually reworking the same five or six volumes of dense chess theory in an attempt to prove +=, especially after 1.Nf3.  God, I can't imagine the nightmares I would have while trying to do that -- if I took it seriously, anyway.


I am sure he has no (k)nightmares - he is just cool enought to write += even if there isn't one  Grin
  
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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #18 - 12/20/10 at 14:09:18
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Fair enough.  In equal fairness though, I don't think I ever argued so much for Palliser's particular recommendations as I did for the soundness of the Symmetrical with the early ...Nc6.  Whatever their objective merit, which I frankly do not know, I was using Palliser's lines as examples.  3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 and now 4...Qb6 is one way for Black to play, and I don't concede it's worse for Black, but Black has other ways of playing.

I am grateful for your sharing your ideas, especially about which lines are critical.
  

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Re: Kramnik repertoire vol 3 (2nd edition)
Reply #17 - 12/19/10 at 05:28:22
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Markovich wrote on 12/19/10 at 04:30:42:
I admit that I did think your repertoire was based on Khalifman or at least, umm, was highly cognizant of him.  That isn't true?  But I certainly didn't mean to give offense, and I don't really think it's very fair to characterize my posts as B.S.  I don't deliberately say untruths here.


Khalifman's contributions form the backbone of a lot of the sideline issues in a 1. Nf3 repertoire much like his Anand series does for 1. e4 players (who else covers the super-rare stuff?). Some of his recommendations, ie: Double Fianchetto Defense, retain their relevance as serious theoretical tries. However, a lot don't due to age. His Hedgehog recommendation was outdated before it hit the presses, for example.

My repertoire has always been distinctively my own, never being the exact same as the one Khalifman promotes.

Quote:

But on one point, aren't you contradicting yourself?  Before, you said that 3.d4 "allows Black to equalize regardless of what path White chooses on move 5."  Now you say, "this line still favors White."  What am I missing?  Wasn't 3.d4 your repertoire move when we were conversing before?  I had the impression that it was.


The Palliser lines in 3. d4 are still +=, which was what we discussed a long time ago. That's what I was referring to, and that hasn't changed.

The solution isn't a Palliser attempt. A lot of the moves I mentioned in the thread I linked previously are novelties.

Quote:
But as to the actual chess, what about 1. Nf3 c5 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5 4. g3 g6 5. Bg2 Bg7 6. 0-0 d6 7. a3 Be6, a question I asked before?


7...Be6 8. d3 Nge7 (8...h6 9. Ne1 Nge7 10. b4 circumvents black's attempt to produce a main line with the useful h6 over a5) 9. b4.

Black can win the exchange, white gets very good compensation for it.

Quote:

Also, what about 1. Nf3 c5 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5 4. g3 g6 5. Bg2 Bg7 6. 0-0 Nge7 7.a3 0-0 8.b4 e4, or 8...d5, which are lines considered by Palliser (p. 26)?   Do you have his work?  I'd be very interested to know where he's mistaken in this line.  I could quote his analysis here if you don't have him.  It must be that P. is wrong about something, since the Great K. now says this is White's One True Path.


I have his work, much like Khalifman's theory has moved on.

7...0-0 8. Ne1 d6 9. Nc2 and white can bind the d5 square without allowing ...d5 as in the main line. Black has not fared well at all in high level play of late.

I'm not sure why 7...0-0 8. b4 popped up since I never mentioned it.
« Last Edit: 12/19/10 at 09:14:29 by BPaulsen »  

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