Normal Topic Question about position...(over 2000s only please) (Read 8230 times)
JamesH
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Re: Question about position...(over 2000s only please)
Reply #8 - 06/24/11 at 19:41:04
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" I usually don't fianchetto my king-side as I don't have experience with it."

This is fairly narrow minded, to become a strong player you must learn how to play all positions!
  

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Re: Question about position...(over 2000s only please)
Reply #7 - 06/22/11 at 22:52:49
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"F)After 7..g6, f5 is stopped and if white tries some crazy g4 based stuff he is getting dangerously behind in development. I imagine something like 8.g4 Bg7 9.f5 Nd4 (that weak square),  castling and d6 should be very good for black." -Klick

This.

"If White can somehow convince Black to push his d-pawn to d4, then all his problems will be solved.  Cheesy

7...d6 8.ed6 (otherwise ...g6 and ...Bg7, followed by a timely ...de5 will leave the e5-pawn weak) Qd6 looks favourable for Black, who can follow with ...g6, ...Bg7, ...0-0, ...b6 and ...Bb7 with a better position. Eventually Black will occupy the d4-square with ...Ned4 and blast open the position for his more active pieces with ...e5. " - TN

Also this.

Short answer is that White has space, while Black has squares.  If advanced pawns aren't preventing you're opponent from activating his pieces (and White's aren't), they're not helping.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Question about position...(over 2000s only please)
Reply #6 - 03/30/11 at 15:23:57
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The position can be summed up thus:

A space advantage is a disadvantage if it cannot be supported by your pieces.

See: KID:4PA when white plays e5 too early.

Here white's center is going to implode with nothing to show for it. Black's not "winning", but he's going to be having all the fun in the near future.
  

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TN
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Re: Question about position...(over 2000s only please)
Reply #5 - 03/22/11 at 11:59:05
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If White can somehow convince Black to push his d-pawn to d4, then all his problems will be solved.  Cheesy

7...d6 8.ed6 (otherwise ...g6 and ...Bg7, followed by a timely ...de5 will leave the e5-pawn weak) Qd6 looks favourable for Black, who can follow with ...g6, ...Bg7, ...0-0, ...b6 and ...Bb7 with a better position. Eventually Black will occupy the d4-square with ...Ned4 and blast open the position for his more active pieces with ...e5.
  

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Re: Question about position...(over 2000s only please)
Reply #4 - 03/22/11 at 11:11:05
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Well the principal answer is that no one is winning! 0.5 or so isn't such a strong evaluation either way. Well within potential margin of error actually. 

e6 is of course a firmly Nimzowich approved square for knights Smiley

On reflection this might well be a 'bad' 0.5 because its somewhat hard to see what white is going to do next. 

'Having' to play 7 d3 really is a bad sign for white actually. Its just not a useful move and when you're playing like this you need to do stuff relatively fast cf d4/b4 (even if sacrifices), Bd3-> e4 perhaps etc.

On a quick look 5 b4/d4 might have represented whites last chances to do something before black shuts down the center. Not certain to be any good, but you're at least dying for a cause as opposed to getting strangled!
  
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Re: Question about position...(over 2000s only please)
Reply #3 - 03/22/11 at 00:23:27
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1) Black's e6 Knight is not clumsily placed.  It would only be clumsy if it could be kicked around or got in the way of the development of the other pieces, but here both Bishops can be fianchettoed or the Knight can hop to d4.  The Knight is very well placed.

2) Starting a pawn storm with moves like g2-g4 will be very double edged; White will be getting further behind in development and his King won't have a safe place on the board.  Also, Black can possibly play ...h7-h5 if needed to hold up a pawn advance.  In general White's pawns are NOT impressive.  They are immobile, and immobile pawns are almost always weaknesses.  They aren't taking away any squares from Black's pieces (both of his Knights are happily sitting near the center).  Black's light squared Bishop can go to b7 (look at that beautiful open long diaganol!), which will be especially tempting if White moves his g-pawn.  The dark squared Bishop can go to g7 or even h6 to put pressure on the f4-pawn (possibly combined with ...h7-h5-h4 if White replies by g2-g3).

3) White does have development problems; all of his pieces will be very passive.  Black won't let White play f4-f5, and both of White's Bishops lack good squares.  Also, where do White's Rooks belong?  I don't know.  Black will be able to initiate a pawn break wherever he wants (in other words, he'll be able to open lines wherever suits him) with moves like ...b7-b5, ...d7-d6, ...f7-f6, and even ...g7-g5.  Black has the luxury of opening lines wherever it will be most uncomfortable for White, whereas White doesn't have the chance to open lines himself.  This means that Black can take more time to improve the position of all his pieces and White will essentially run out of useful moves.  Black will end up with a kind of development advantage in the area of the board that he chooses to open.  It might sound far-fetched, but that's the luxury of being the person who makes all the decisions on when and where the position will open up.

4) Black's chances for attacks will come after he's developed and chosen an area of the board to open; see above.

5) It's clearly best to fianchetto here because it's the only way to get the Bishop into the game!  With the Knight sitting on e6 it's not going to be developed the other way.  Also, Black probably doesn't want to play ...Ne6-d4 early on because White can relieve his cramped position with exchanges.  Yes, I called White's position cramped.  Optically he has more space, but in reality he just doesn't have any good squares for his Bishops, Rooks, or Queen.

In a way, this position reminds me a lot of the Tal Gambit line 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.ed Nf6 4.c4 e6! 5.de Bxe6 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.d3 Be7 8.Be2 0-0.  In that position, it looks like White has more space because of the pawn on f4 and the extra pawn on d3, but in reality his pawns just block in both of his Bishops and White's game feels very cramped to me.
  
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Re: Question about position...(over 2000s only please)
Reply #2 - 03/21/11 at 23:39:49
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/21/11 at 21:36:00:
  

1) Black's e6 knight looks in a clumsy position to me, easy to remove, not doing anything and blocking development. I mean look at his bishops, not even one pawn is developing them.    

2) It seems to me like White could create a strong pawn storm down the right hand side. 

3) White seems to have no development problems, f5 will not only remove Black's knight but develop his dark-squared bishop more. 
 
4) Where are Black's chances for attacks? Nb4 for example is a dead end.   


Also, why is it better for Black to fianchetto with g6 in this position? I usually don't fianchetto my king-side as I don't have experience with it.   
    


Just to address the points you made:

1) As pointed out by klick, the knight on e6 fulfills an important function as it hems in the pawn on d3, thereby controlling the square d4. And it's not a Dvoretskian "superfluous" knight, as it allows the other knight to keep an eye on e5.

2+3) A pawn storm without pieces to back it up is not going anywhere. How do you back it up? The bishop on f1 only has g2 to go to, which isn't doing much for your pawn storm. Unless you manage to get the pawn on f5 your other bishop does nothing at all either. But after g6, playing f4-f5 will always mean a pawn sacrifice. Notice that f5 also weakens e5, I doubt you can afford to lose this pawn. So ,yes, indeed I think that White has some major problems  developing.

4) Black's chances are the White's e5 pawn and/or play along the d-file plus the play he gets along the a1/h8-diagonal. With a timely d6, Black opens the d-file and plays against d3.

5) Just because you do not like a fianchettoed bishop doesn't mean that it isn't a strong plan objectively. The bishop on g7 in conjunction with the removal of or pressure against the e5 pawn will cause White headaches.

So, do I think that Black is "winning"? No, but if asked I would take Black as I think that White will have to play very creatively rather quickly if he doesn't want the get strangled. If he can get his Knight on b1 to e4 quickly then maybe he can do something against d6. For the moment I think that Black's position is easier to play.


  
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Klick
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Re: Question about position...(over 2000s only please)
Reply #1 - 03/21/11 at 22:32:36
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A few points just after a quick glance:

A)What Rybka thinks is not so important

B) White has committed his pawns. Remember, pawns can never go back! Black is staying flexible to see where his pawn break will be most efficient and when he finally makes his pawn breaks, chances are good some of whites pawn will be weak or leave weak squares behind. Can you see any weak squares in black`s position?

C)Theres already one obvious weak square in whites position: d4. The knight on e6 is excellently placed to use that square.

D)A fianchettoed bishop is often a strong piece, controlling the longest diagonal on the board, among the squares it can cover is the important central squares! Entire openings has been developed based on such a bishop. Besides, the fianchettoed structure and its bishop can strengthen the kings defences. Here it is also the most sensible way to develop. 

E)If black stays flexible and hurries with his development he doesnt need to do any special attack, just set pieces up for a pawn break and play the pawn break when whites weak squares and committed pawns will tell.

F)After 7..g6, f5 is stopped and if white tries some crazy g4 based stuff he is getting dangerously behind in development. I imagine something like 8.g4 Bg7 9.f5 Nd4 (that weak square),  castling and d6 should be very good for black.

G)White has some issues developing his bishops efficiently. The d3 pawn is getting in the way of the white-squared bishop. The black-squared bishop has some similar issues.
  

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Uhohspaghettio
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Question about position...(over 2000s only please)
03/21/11 at 21:36:00
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This question is strictly for over 2000s, please don't reply if you're under that. A consistent rating of over 2000 in blitz at ICC or Playchess will suffice.  

I know that some people under 2000 might be able to give a good answer, but others would just be completely guessing and have no clue. Those opinions would be worth less than nothing to me because they would put me in the wrong direction. 

Consider the following position, which arises after:  
  
1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. c4 Nc7 5. f4 Nc6 6. Nf3 Ne6 7. d3. 

Try and figure out who is winning and what Black's next move or plan is, answer is below. There's no attack on or anything like that, just opening strategy.   



Apparently Black is winning by 0.57 according to Rybka, and Black's next move is g6. White is also deviating from the main theory into this position, so current theory has it as worse for White (not just Rybka).  
 
I would have thought White would be winning in this position because:  

1) Black's e6 knight looks in a clumsy position to me, easy to remove, not doing anything and blocking development. I mean look at his bishops, not even one pawn is developing them.    

2) It seems to me like White could create a strong pawn storm down the right hand side. 

3) White seems to have no development problems, f5 will not only remove Black's knight but develop his dark-squared bishop more. 
 
4) Where are Black's chances for attacks? Nb4 for example is a dead end.   

So what gives? Again please, no guesses. That's why I asked on this site, because I think the most informed are here. 

Also, why is it better for Black to fianchetto with g6 in this position? I usually don't fianchetto my king-side as I don't have experience with it.   
    
  
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