Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) B20: Myers' Variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4 (Read 63784 times)
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #60 - 09/09/11 at 21:02:30
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/15/11 at 04:57:12:

Did you see the link? Before criticizing you could at least look at my article. I am tired of the empty talk. Give me a concrete suggestion for Black. I think the logic (principles, if you want) behind the move is pretty good, and yes, I have a tree of variations which only partly went into the article. 


I'll try that. 

As a preface: I enjoy 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Bb4 on a regular basis, counting on the facts that it hasn't been in the spotlight of the big guys and the fact that it poses concrete problems to solve from move 2 on. Nevertheless, I am aware of the fact that this variation (IMHO) yields better prospects for white, who is (IMHO) good-advised to reply with 3.Nd5 (!). 

This constitutes the first try: 

A) What is your reply to 

1.e4 c5
2.a4?! Nc6 
3.Bb5 Nd4

? In the mirror variation, black's best retreat is Be7, yet the appearance of a pawn on a2 or a4 will not change the evaluation. The only retreat trying to utilize this move is by 4.Bc4, when black may just mirror the english variation by the means of 4...Nf6, when 5.c3 Nc6 6.d3 d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 may be equal, but the additional move a4 doesn't impress much. I'd rather be black here. 

This tells me that you mostly will keep the bishop on b5, which however automatically puts you into standard openings in which a4 is harmless, like 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bb5!? Nd4 4.a4?. 

If you propose to challenge the d4 knight classicaly by 4.Nf3, black seems to be able to level the game by

4...Nf6!? (gamblers might also enjoy 4...a6!?, when 5.Nxd4 transposes to the note below and 5.Bc4 gives the additional possibility 5...d5!? 6.exd5 Bg4 - as well as a transposition by the means of 5...Nf6)
5.e5 (the desired 5.Nxd4 cxd4 6.d3 seems harmless: a6! 7.Bc4 d5 8.exd5 Bg4! this nice yet typical zwischenzug gives black a fine game) 

and if the white bishop does not retreat onto the a2-g8 diagonal, the whole point of a2-a4 seems to be missing (6.Bd3 Nd5=). Yet after

6.Bc4 d5!
7.Be2, it seems simplest for me to play 7...Nxe2 8.Qxe2 Ng8 9.d4 Bg4, which resembles a superior C-K (Bf1 exchange clearly favors black).   

The only true independent line is constituted by 4.c3?!, when 4...Nxb5 and 5...d5 next levels the game immediately.

And it should be kept in mind that this is a variation in which white was allowed to get his "dream" exchange on d4. 


B) Your variation 

1.e4 c5
2.a4?! g6
3.Nc3 (One can surely look what Marin has analyzed in the mirror variation following 3.d4?!, but you already agreed upon white having nothing in this line) Bg7
4.f4 Nc6 
5.Bb5

B1) - of course! - allows black to transpose into one of the GPA main lines by the means of 5...Nd4 6.Nf3. I think we agree that objectively, black does not have to fear this line, even though black was not able to "punish" the first player for his rather strange move order. 

B2) There is also the independent idea 5...Nh6!?, which enjoys a certain popularity against the "normal" Bb5 GPA (it takes the sting out of e4-e5, allows the defence manoeuvre f7-f5 and does not block the Bg7's view onto d4). The move a2-a4 seems rather dispensable in this variation.

B3) Also the "direct punishment" 5...Nb4 (!) seems adequate. After 6.Nf3 a6! (it seems to be most precise to first question the bishop and then play according to its retreat square) 7.Bc4 (7.Be2 is harmless, 7...d5 =+, the possibility Nh6, controlling f5, secures black the better game), black should rather not try the energetic 7..d5?!, when 8.exd5? Nf6 = as well as 8.Nxd5 Nxd5 9.Bxd5 Nf6 = gives him an easy game and 8.Bxd5! Bg4! is a creative and troublesome counterplay attempt (e6 comes with tempo, when Ne7-c6-d4 will be quick), yet does not seem to give enough compensation for the pawn. 

WAY better (after 6...a6 7.Bc4) is 7...e6!. This basically forces 8.e5, as otherwise black gets a hyper anti GPA setup with 8...d5. After 8.e5 d5! 9.exd6 Nf6 and Qxd6 next, black is at least equal. 

C) After 

1.e4 c5
2.a4?! e6
3.Nf3 Nc6
4.Bb5 you give 4...Nf6 in your analysis, but fail to mention the 'natural' 4...Ng-e7. This position is known with Nc3 instead of a4, with the former being way more useful. Usually, in this line White tries to exploit his development advantage, and a single wasted tempo can be quite telling.



Having employed the GPA exclusively (and quite successful) for several years, I do not feel comfortable with such an early a4. There are some subtleties in which White is better off with a2-a3 instead of a2-a4, and there are a LOT of positions in which the move is not needed at all. I have therefore at least mixed feelings regarding this move, even though it does not seem so easy to dismiss it. Nevertheless, as my considerations above show it is also not easy to claim an advantage.
  

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Re: B20: Myers' Variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4
Reply #59 - 09/09/11 at 09:09:33
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Hmm... I just notice a small gap in my analysis: 1.e4 c5 2.a4! Nc6 3.Bb5 Na5. I doubt that Black equalizes though. 
  
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Re: B20: Myers' Variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4
Reply #58 - 08/23/11 at 15:01:49
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I noticed, I just don't know how the dates compare to when an event was finished in correspondence chess. 

Ok, a decade is a bit long for a tnmt to drag on, even using snail mail.
  
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Re: B20: Myers' Variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4
Reply #57 - 08/23/11 at 14:36:58
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/23/11 at 14:08:34:
Jon, what does "BCCA DJKO 39/1" represent? From the rest of your text, I'm guessing this was one of the correspondence games from your World Championship tnmt where you earned the CC IM title. (Congratulations!)


Nope. As you'll notice, the WC tournament was back in 1995 and the game above was from 2004. Wink

BCCA DJKO 39/1 = British Correspondence Chess Association, Diamond Jubilee Knockout Tournament No.39, Round 1.

I used to use the DJKO for trying out unusual openings.
  

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Re: B20: Myers' Variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4
Reply #56 - 08/23/11 at 14:08:34
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Jon, what does "BCCA DJKO 39/1" represent? From the rest of your text, I'm guessing this was one of the correspondence games from your World Championship tnmt where you earned the CC IM title. (Congratulations!)
  
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Re: B20: Myers' Variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4
Reply #55 - 08/22/11 at 14:06:45
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Checking my games files, I was surprised to see I've actually played this line:



I don't remember that game at all. Smiley

On the effectiveness of Bb5 + a2-a4 vs. the Sicilian in general, if it's of any significance my results with 2 Nf3 d6 3 Bb5+ Bd7 (or 3...Nd7) 4 a4 are:

P46, W29, D16, L1, 80%

And the CC subset of those is:
P11, W8, D3, L0, 86%
including three wins in a world championship semi-final (1995-97) which got me the CC-IM title.

Needless to say I have a much higher score with these lines than with 3 d4. The point, I think, is not that a2-a4 (with Bb5) is better, but that Sicilian players are thrown onto their own resources from very early on, and often it seems they find that a little confusing (having studied their usual defences to move 20 and beyond).

Edit: I've uploaded a scan of an article I wrote on 3 Bb5 and a2-a4 (basically just some of my games). If anyone is interested they can get it here:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/eoq1ku
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: B20: Myers' Variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4
Reply #54 - 08/21/11 at 20:58:29
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SWJediknight wrote on 08/15/11 at 17:56:59:
The evidence for forcing matters in the centre early on being a bad thing is pretty mixed.  The aforementioned Staunton Gambit isn't that bad for White [...] and the Scotch Game (a particularly good analogy with the Open Sicilian) is currently considered White's second-most serious try for advantage after 1.e4 e5 after the Lopez.

I don't know whether forcing matters early with White is bad. Some of my 2010 ideas (still unpublished) are sharp white gambits. With the Sicilian, I have this reservation because of (a) Black's extra pawn in the center, and (b) the Pelikan/Sveshnikov and other lines seem to equalize. 

John Watson speculated "meta-theoretically" that there may be a difference between 1.d4 and 1.e4: pawn e4 can be attacked more easily. If not today, this instance may gain relevance in the future, with PCs getting faster and the software stronger. Let's assume for a moment that John were right and 1.e4 invites simplifications (more than 1.d4). Instead of "Is forcing matters with 2.Nf3 good?" the real question may be: "Is it easier for Black to force matters (= simplify) in the Open or in the Closed Sicilian?" 

But following this line of argumentation is risky, it comes dangerously close to "1.d4!" (Hans Berliner), something I certainly don't agree with.
  
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Re: B20: Myers' Variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4
Reply #53 - 08/21/11 at 15:27:46
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Interesting.  Thanks.  I'll consider what you have said.
  

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Re: B20: Myers' Variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4
Reply #52 - 08/20/11 at 16:54:29
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Markovich wrote on 08/16/11 at 15:50:51:
So l'd like to come back to that and 2...a6, which is a move I continue to like.  Since 2...a6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.f4 e6 5.Nf3 d5 6.d3 Nf6 does not appear to be very good for White, I assume White's main idea would be 4.g3.  Against that, Black's set-up ...g6, ...Bg7, ...e6, ...Nge7 looks flexible and preserves ...d5 in one go as an option.  For example 4.g3 g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.d3 e6 7.f4 Nge7 8.Nf3 d5 9.O-O O-O.  This position has come up in 20 games in my database, White scoring 30.2%.  That score seems ridiculous to me, since I don't think White is worse, but I don't think that Black is worse either.  He has the obvious plan of ...Rb8, ...b5 and so forth. It looks like a game of chess where both sides have pretty significant winning chances, which is just what I like about Black's side of Closed Sicilian.

If White instead of 7.f4 goes with 7.Be3, then 7...d6 8.Qd2 Rb8 looks pretty interesting, and I see no reason why Black should be worse.  E.g. 10.Nge2 b5 11.axb5 axb5 12.0-0 b4 13.Nd1 Nd4 appears to be another one of those positions where both sides have good winning chances.

Stefan, you apparently understand these Closed Sicilian positions better than I do, since you've worked out a theory under which a4, ...a6 favors White.  So I look forward to being educated on this subject.  Why is White better after the methods that I've proposed for Black?


White can choose between many set-ups in the Closed, and while I am sure that the additional a4/a6 doesn't "ruin" the system, I am less sure which of the possible set-ups is best. 

My article http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss21.pdf tells the "history" of 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 g6 4 Bg2 Bg7 5 d3 d6 6 f4 e6 7 Nf3 Nge7 8 0-0 0-0 9 Be3 Nd4 10 e5. I propagated this exotic gambit (and versions of it) in two publications: S. Bücker: Geschlossener Sizilianer Teil 1, Nordwalde 1983; and S. Bücker: “Closed Sicilian,” in New in Chess Magazine 7/1985, pp. 52-56. I didn't invent it, but it was almost forgotten in 1983. In the late 1980s the brothers Bastian liked the 10.e5 version and used it successfully; so it's fair to call it "Bastian Gambit". Today there are 1.700+ games in the database, 53% for White, Miles and Spassky played it, Balashov scored heavily ("success elo": 2800). 

I still have much sympathy for the gambit 10.e5 and for my related ideas from the 1980s. But before I could confidently recommend the gambit in the a4/a6 version, a lot of work would be necessary. I really don't want to go into that now, I hope you understand. Maybe the following is sufficient to convince you that an experienced "Closed" player should not fear 2...a6.

1.e4 c5 2.a4 a6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.g3 (let's leave 4.f4 e6 5.Nf3 d5 6.d3 Nf6 for another day - I don't believe that Black has fully equalized) 4...g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.d3 e6 7.Be3 d6   

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As I said above, gambit ideas starting with 8.f4 Nge7 9.Nf3 still seem promising. In particular as you intend to strive for b7-b5, which rather invites the gambit (pawn c5 becomes weak) than discourages it. E.g. 9...0-0 10.0-0, and now it seems wiser to play 10...b6 than some idea with b5. 

On the other side after a4/a6 there are factors which rather encourage set-ups without f2-f4. The additional a6 reduces Black's counterplay against d3-d4 (typically b6 +Ba6 attacking Rf1 is a plague). Therefore the direct 8.Nf3 comes into consideration: followed by 0-0, d4, Nce2, c3; or followed by Nf3-d2-b3, "working" on the c5 pawn. Other options are 8.h4!? or 8.Nge2 or 8.Nh3, so I'd be in trouble to identify a single best move. Finally, you gave 8.Qd2 Rb8 9.Nge2 b5. But after 10.axb5 axb5 11.d4 White is better. You'd have to prepare the advance b7-b5, e.g. 9...Nd4 which gives, however, White tons of concrete ideas, like 10.a5 Ne7 11.Bxd4 cxd4 12.Na4 or 10.Rb1 Ne7 11.b4 or even 10.0-0 Ne7 11.b4!? or 10.h4!?. 

There is a lot more to say, e.g. 9.f4(!) threatens both f4-f5 or 9...b5? 10.e5. Another case with many options. Probably Black should play 9...Nge7 10.Nf3 Nd4 11.0-0 Nec6 (or 11...b5 12.e5; or 11...0-0 12.a5 Nec6 13.e5) 12.e5. 

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Just like in the 10.e5 gambit, it is difficult to say what is going on in the diagrammed position. All I can say is that I'd feel very much at home, it's quite similar to my pet line 10.e5. 
  
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Re: B20: Myers' Variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4
Reply #51 - 08/20/11 at 14:50:50
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Well then, how about a reply to the Closed Sicilian considerations in my post #44?
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #50 - 08/18/11 at 03:48:25
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/18/11 at 02:37:55:
I really didn't want to move everything over to the Sicilian thread. I have a strong feeling that it won't get read nearly as much once it's split off. [...]

Many thanks for moving all these posts, Smyslov_Fan. If members ignore 2.a4, they hurt only themselves.  Smiley
  
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Re: B20: Myers' Variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4
Reply #49 - 08/18/11 at 02:41:26
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/17/11 at 22:39:39:
The variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4 was invented by the American opening theoretician and author Hugh Edward Myers (1930-2008), inspired by a discussion in 1958 about 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 with GM Nicolas Rossolimo. The latter liked to combine his pet line with an early a2-a4. Myers' stem games with 2.a4 from the 1960s appeared with instructive comments in Exploring the Chess Openings (1978) and in Myers' autobiography A Chess Explorer (2002). 

My own article http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss65.pdf gives an introduction into the ideas, recommending 2.a4 as part of my semi-unusual repertoire for 1.e4 players. The line remained a rarity, but the Dutch IM Gerard Welling used it with success. In his games Welling follows Myers' main concept: White hopes for a version of the Rossolimo Variation, but in contrast to the beginning 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 White may be able to choose a different set-up including f4 or develop his king's knight to e2 after, say 1.e4 c5 2.a4 Nc6 3.Bb5 or 2...Bd7 3.Bb5+. Moreover, in contrast to 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6, when White must be familiar with another system, the Myers Variation offers possibilities to steer the game into Rossolimo channels (or d6 Bb5+ channels) even against 2...g6. - To the following game I added some analysis in order to illustrate White's options after 2...g6. 



I am just adding this original comment by Stefan to the end of the thread because I combined so many comments from the original thread in the General Chess section.
  
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Re: B20: Myers' Variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4
Reply #48 - 08/18/11 at 02:40:12
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The last 47 Posts were moved here from General Chess [move by] Smyslov_Fan.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #47 - 08/18/11 at 02:37:55
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I really didn't want to move everything over to the Sicilian thread. I have a strong feeling that it won't get read nearly as much once it's split off.

But, 

Thank you Stefan for creating another thread. I'll copy and paste the relevant comments to that thread, leaving the original here. That should satisfy everyone, with the one caveat that someone may make a comment in one thread and get a response in the other. If that happens, I'll just cut this one.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #46 - 08/17/11 at 17:07:11
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More on identifying "high level" games: you could also order on the minimum of the Elos of the two players.
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #45 - 08/17/11 at 16:43:01
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Markovich wrote on 08/17/11 at 14:52:55:
P.S. Moderator, maybe this 2.a4 Sicilian discussion should be snipped off and moved into Anti-Sicilians.

A good idea. Moderator, I'll start a new thread today in the Anti-Sicilian section, that first post will discuss what 2.a4 can do what 2.Nf3 can't. Please move the other 2.a4 posts over to that thread when my work is done.  

Then I'll reply to John's post, followed by 2...a6. For now let me say that my suggestion 1.e4 c5 2.a4 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Qd2 (6.Qd1) 6...Bg7 7.Bc4 is refuted by means of 7...e6!, equalizing on the spot. I still think that the last diagram is fine for White, but the early a4 only works if the opponent doesn't play 7...e6!. The position might be reached in a different way: 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.Qd2 (6.Qe3) etc., but since Black usually plays 2...Nc6, this isn't too relevant either. Finally, in the case of 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 and a later N4e2, I'd only reach a position with Qd1, not my subtle improvement with Qd2. It's a pity.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #44 - 08/17/11 at 14:52:55
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Stefan my be mistaken about that particular position, but it doesn't really affect his advocacy of 2.a4, which mainly envisions some sort of closed Sicilian.

So l'd like to come back to that and 2...a6, which is a move I continue to like.  Since 2...a6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.f4 e6 5.Nf3 d5 6.d3 Nf6 does not appear to be very good for White, I assume White's main idea would be 4.g3.  Against that, Black's set-up ...g6, ...Bg7, ...e6, ...Nge7 looks flexible and preserves ...d5 in one go as an option.  For example 4.g3 g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.d3 e6 7.f4 Nge7 8.Nf3 d5 9.O-O O-O.  This position has come up in 20 games in my database, White scoring 30.2%.  That score seems ridiculous to me, since I don't think White is worse, but I don't think that Black is worse either.  He has the obvious plan of ...Rb8, ...b5 and so forth. It looks like a game of chess where both sides have pretty significant winning chances, which is just what I like about Black's side of Closed Sicilian.

If White instead of 7.f4 goes with 7.Be3, then 7...d6 8.Qd2 Rb8 looks pretty interesting, and I see no reason why Black should be worse.  E.g. 10.Nge2 b5 11.axb5 axb5 12.0-0 b4 13.Nd1 Nd4 appears to be another one of those positions where both sides have good winning chances.

Stefan, you apparently understand these Closed Sicilian positions better than I do, since you've worked out a theory under which a4, ...a6 favors White.  So I look forward to being educated on this subject.  Why is White better after the methods that I've proposed for Black?

For what it's worth, I don't know that statistics are much of a guide to these positions with a4 and ...a6 in, since I've noticed that the games are mostly rather low-level.  However when the number of games goes up into the hundreds, I think the statistics do mean something. 

P.S. Moderator, maybe this 2.a4 Sicilian discussion should be snipped off and moved into Anti-Sicilians.

P.P.S. Stefan, ordering groups of games by White's average Elo introduces a bias, in that the stronger White is, the larger the likely disparity between White and Black.  To identify games as high-level, you should order by the average of both player's Elos.  Otherwise your results are contaminated by the tendency of stronger players to defeat weaker ones in the higher groups, and the symmetrical effect in the lower groups.
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #43 - 08/17/11 at 06:13:25
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I agree with John. There's no way I'd say that favors white, or that I'd rather play white. White will be fortunate to just maintain equality as the game unfolds.
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #42 - 08/17/11 at 02:23:35
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/17/11 at 00:09:19:
In my next post I'll argue for 1.e4 c5 2.a4 g6 3.Nc3, but another possibility comes into consideration: 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Qd2 Bg7 7.Bc4 0-0 8.Nge2!?, and I slightly prefer White (8...e6 9.Qd6, certainly not 9.0-0? Nxe4).


If we take this line one move further with 8...d6, we have the following position:

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I can't imagine why you would prefer White.  Black has a standard Dragon position, while White has made a couple strange (and frankly just harmful) moves.  The b4 square is chronically weakened (in fact, White would prefer that the pawn be back on a2) and the queen stands awkwardly on d2.  Black looks slightly better to me.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #41 - 08/17/11 at 00:09:19
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Things are rarely simple, in some lines Black may profit from a6/a4. But for now, I put 2...a6 aside. As an alternative treatment, I propose 1.e4 c5 2.a4 a6!? 3.g3. The early g3 is one of the lines White would like to play, keeping open the option of c3 and Na3-c2. There is only the problem that the immediate 2.g3 is met by 2...d5. I'd argue, however, that lines like 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.Bg2 Qe6+ 6.Kf1 are looking better for White with an additional a4 and a6. Usually Black's Queen retreats to d7, but new ideas might shine up, based on the weakness of b6 (Na3-c4), or perhaps a4-a5 or Ra3-d3/e3. 

gewgaw wrote on 08/15/11 at 21:51:54:
1.e4 c5 2.a4 g6 3.Nc3

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3. Now there are many moves possible like 3.f4, 3.g3 3.Bc4 3.Nf3;
A move like 3.a4 is possible, but has the disadvantage, that White determines himself; maybe White needs a4, maybe not, but after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 White has definitely more flexible moves than 3.a4.

I like 2.Nc3, but there are also many Bb5 players, and if we regard 2.a4 as a version of the Rossolimo, the a4 move may be more flexible than developing a knight (be it Nc3 or Nf3). In my next post I'll argue for 1.e4 c5 2.a4 g6 3.Nc3, but another possibility comes into consideration: 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Qd2 Bg7 7.Bc4 0-0 8.Nge2!?, and I slightly prefer White (8...e6 9.Qd6, certainly not 9.0-0? Nxe4).  

Markovich wrote on 08/16/11 at 01:10:08:
[...] My essential point was that analysis that commences at move two must necessarily be inadequate for determining moves at that stage and that, therefore, one must rely on principle. In all fairness, I don't think that that's an empty statement.

There is no principle I am aware of that speaks against 2.a4. In the English Opening 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Bb4, the move a5 is regularly seen in the next few moves. Very often (KI, Budapest, ...) we play a4 or a5, and not only to secure a square c4 or c5 for a piece, but also for general reasons, for example to prevent an opponent's expansion or to gain space ourselves. But aside from such general observations, my next post will show that 2.a4 has a concrete analytical advantage over 2.Nf3 for the Bb5 concept. 

I know that some old books recommend to find moves by means of deduction, but over the last years this idea was replaced by pattern recognizion, I believe.  Wink

Markovich wrote on 08/16/11 at 01:10:08:
Further, what is your argument about not opening the game early but an appeal to principle?

Nothing so important. I merely argue for variety. In a world where everybody plays 2.a4, I play 2.Nf3. Chess becomes boring, if fashions are imitated without thinking.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #40 - 08/16/11 at 17:00:21
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Markovich wrote on 08/16/11 at 15:50:51:
Again by transposition, the position after 2.a4 a6 3.Nc3 e6 has arisen in 239 games, White scoring 40.5%.

So while Stefan may be right that it's a notable achievement for White to reach a Closed Sicilian with 2.a4 a6 in, the statistics don't seem to support it.  I'm saying that 2...a6 is a move that should be seriously considered.

First of all, thanks for all the constructive replies posted yesterday and today. I'll address more of it soon. 

Yes, 2...a6 should be seriously considered. The idea that the pair of moves a6/a4 was good for Black stems from the old times when the accepted way to counter the Closed Sicilian was Rb8 followed by b5 and b4. There were lines with a3, exchanging pawns on b4 (or maybe with a4 as a reaction to a5). A very similar thing may appear on the board after a6/a4 if Black continues with Rb8 and b5. Boris Spassky not only played these nice king-side attacks vs Portisch, he was also able to show that often White must play an active role on the queenside, in contrast to what was formerly believed. 

In http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1309410160/5#5 I had discussed the line 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bg2 Nf6 6.d3 d4 7.Ne4 Nxe4, trying to explain why White scored badly here. (Yes, it is different than the version with a6/a4 included. But in both cases I believe that the position is objectively doing fine for White, at least in the hand of good players.)

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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/01/11 at 02:58:19:

8.dxe4! Nc6 9.Ne2 is the key position. MegaBase 2008 gives 70 games, score: 42% for White. The line is strategically difficult, which is why some players cannot handle it (perhaps me included). If you order the games according to White's Elo, you find these scores for White:

Games  1-10 - score 60% +46 / -44 ("success" W./B.*)
Games 11-20 - score 50% +50 /-48
Games 21-30 - score 50% +34 /-33
Games 31-40 - score 30% -47 / +48
Games 41-50 - score 40% -9 / +10
Games 51-60 - score 35% +51 / -50
Games 61-70 - score 30%

(* meaning: White played 46 Elo "stronger" than expected, Black 44 "weaker")

These highest-rated players did not face, in average, much weaker opponents, e.g. the ten best Whities had: average 2457, success 2503; their opponents: average 2430, success 2386. 

The lower-rated Whities, No's 41-70: average 2080, success 2081; their opponents: average 2213, success 2184. Looking at all games, White played about as "expected", Black 20 points below his average. 

Not a convincing "proof", considering the small number of games, but maybe it qualifies as a trend. Studying my own games, I was always satisfied with the opening, but found it hard to convert the advantage. There are few static advantages, the play is very dynamic. To convert one advantage into another isn't easy. In this respect Bobby Fischer excelled: convert an advantage in development into an advantage in space, then maybe into a pawn, returning the pawn for piece play, finding a way to establish a passed pawn, etc. Not everybody is able to play that way. 

Anyway, in my opinion 8.dxe4! is objectively a strong move. If the strategy is too difficult for many, it's not the fault of the opening. 

  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #39 - 08/16/11 at 15:50:51
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fling wrote on 08/16/11 at 07:14:44:
I still feel that there must be lines in which the tempo used for 2.a4 could be better for something else...


Well either that, or 2.a4 is the best move.

I note that 2...a6 is a popular rejoinder to 2.Nc3, and that 3.a4 is White's third most popular next move.  Some observations from my data base:

By transposition, the position after 2.a4 a6 3.Nc3 Nc6 has arisen in 317 games, White scoring 43.8% 

Again by transposition, the position after 2.a4 a6 3.Nc3 e6 has arisen in 239 games, White scoring 40.5%.

So while Stefan may be right that it's a notable achievement for White to reach a Closed Sicilian with 2.a4 a6 in, the statistics don't seem to support it.  I'm saying that 2...a6 is a move that should be seriously considered.
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #38 - 08/16/11 at 07:14:44
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I still feel that there must be lines in which the tempo used for 2.a4 could be better for something else, as TalJechin says about the center play e.g. Also, the weakening of b4 this early can't be better than the advantage of a4 when Black has played neither ...a6 nor ...b6, can it? Don't have any concrete lines though, without looking at it more in detail. Anyway, thanks for the link Stefan.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #37 - 08/16/11 at 02:07:59
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Stefan, I was wondering if you could state any independant significance/advantage of the move 2. a4 that is not available in another opening. What options does 2. a4 offer or what does it allow or disallow? "surprise value" generally has to have some element where your opponent could possibly fall into some type of trap or bad position, where is it? I think that any opening that has independant significance at least have a kind of respect because it can't be objectively proven to be inferior to or the exact same as something else. You can "invent" any move, but that doesn't mean the inventer or the move is worth anything, just like I can invent something stupid or trivial in real life. 
  
On a slightly related topic: an early a4 has become practically required in the 6. Be2 Najdorf/small-center Sicilian, so as Black I would in no way allow it to transpose to that.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #36 - 08/16/11 at 01:10:08
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Stefan, I didn't see your link, sorry; but I also have not issued any sweeping condemnations or said that anyone's work shouldn't be published. My essential point was that analysis that commences at move two must necessarily be inadequate for determining moves at that stage and that, therefore, one must rely on principle. In all fairness, I don't think that that's an empty statement.

I agree that in chess, eventually, all is specificity. I do not agree that this means that chess principles aren't a good basis for finding moves in many situations. For humans finding them, at any rate.
 
Further, what is your argument about not opening the game early but an appeal to principle?
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #35 - 08/15/11 at 21:51:54
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1.e4 c5 2.a4 g6 3.Nc3

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3. Now there are many moves possible like 3.f4, 3.g3 3.Bc4 3.Nf3;
A move like 3.a4 is possible, but has the disadvantage, that White determines himself; maybe White needs a4, maybe not, but after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 White has definitely more flexible moves than 3.a4.
« Last Edit: 08/16/11 at 12:47:45 by gewgaw »  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #34 - 08/15/11 at 20:11:32
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SWJediknight wrote on 08/15/11 at 17:56:59:
Much of Black's play in the Sicilian revolves around the ...b5 break, so 2.a4 has the positive aim of hindering ...b5.  Having read Stefan's article on the opening, the result tends to be a Bb5(+) Sicilian with a2-a4 substituted for Nc3 and/or Nf3, so the question is whether or not White benefits from the early a2-a4.  I suspect not, but perhaps one argument for it at the sub 1800 level is that players of the black pieces might get despondent at having to work harder to get in ...b5.  I wouldn't personally recommend it to others though.

In some lines my article wasn't very specific. For example, after 2...a6 I just linked to another article on 2.Nc3 a6 3.a4. In my experience the pair of moves a6/a4 improves White's chances in the Closed Sicilian. The most popular Anti-Closed set-up today is the one with b6, Bb7, Qd7, f5. Softening up Black's structure on the queen side (b5 axb5 axb5) is a small success. Black can still play b6 after a4/a6, but the structure is weaker than without a7-a6. In opening books I've sometimes seen remarks that the inclusion of a4/a6 in the Closed Sicilian favoured Black, but in this point I disagree. 

Regarding the question whether a4 is useful in Bb5 Sicilians, Gerard Welling knows more about these positions than I do. He believes that it is useful in many lines, but not in all cases. However, he doesn't think that there is a single line where a4 is more a negative than a positive factor. And we shouldn't forget that a4, innocuous as it seems, produces a new situation, it isn't simply an English Opening Reversed. There are many people who do play 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Bb4 with Black and think it is equal. Ask them whether they'd like a move a5 for free!

Djy wrote on 08/15/11 at 13:08:30:
Maybe the point of 1.e4 c5 2.a4 is to let down any theory and just play chess 

That comes close, but I think Gerard would rather say: it requires some good moves from Black, and if he finds a line where a4 isn't a real advantage, then let's play chess. 

SWJediknight wrote on 08/15/11 at 17:56:59:
The evidence for forcing matters in the centre early on being a bad thing is pretty mixed. The aforementioned Staunton Gambit isn't that bad for White (the line 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nc6 5.d5 Ne5 6.Qe2, instead of the old 6.Qd4 Nf7, is currently causing Black a few headaches) and the Scotch Game (a particularly good analogy with the Open Sicilian) is currently considered White's second-most serious try for advantage after 1.e4 e5 after the Lopez.

Don't ask me about details (someone else did the work), but 6.Qe2 is equal at best. (And TalJechin's 2.Nc3 d5: I always loved that with Black. Sicilian 2.Nf3 advocates are lucky that e5 is unprotected.) I am a big fan of the Scotch, but 4.Nxd4 Qh4 is Black's best option and entirely unclear. 

@TalJechin: Thanks for your remarks. You mention 2...a6 and 2...g6. My article http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss65.pdf already said a bit about these moves: 

Quote:
      (c) 2…g6 3 Nc3 (more convincing than 3 h4 in Myers – Neuer, Eastern Experts, New York 1971) 3…Bg7 4 f4 Nc6 5 Bb5 d6 (5…Nf6!?) 6 Nf3 Bd7 7 0-0 Nd4?! (7…Nf6) 8 d3 e6 9 e5! += Welling – Jasnikowski, Copenhagen 1980. Black's fianchetto Bg7 invites the advance of White's f-pawn, to delay the decision what to do with the Bf1. If the defender wants to prevent the exchange of the bishop for his knight, he might play the cautious 4…a6, which can result in a kind of Closed Sicilian (after 5 g3). However, plenty of alternatives are available; for example, 5 Bc4 in the spirit of an (improved) Anderssen Variation 2 Bc4.
        (d) 2…a6 3 Nc3 transposes to a situation discussed in "Paralyzing the Sicilians" in April 2009. Or White can go into a King's Indian Attack: d3, Nf3, g3 and so on.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #33 - 08/15/11 at 17:56:59
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Much of Black's play in the Sicilian revolves around the ...b5 break, so 2.a4 has the positive aim of hindering ...b5.  Having read Stefan's article on the opening, the result tends to be a Bb5(+) Sicilian with a2-a4 substituted for Nc3 and/or Nf3, so the question is whether or not White benefits from the early a2-a4.  I suspect not, but perhaps one argument for it at the sub 1800 level is that players of the black pieces might get despondent at having to work harder to get in ...b5.  I wouldn't personally recommend it to others though.

I agree with MNb's posts that the Open Sicilian can be played in a non-theoretical manner.  I don't think it's an argument to suggest that people should play these Open Sicilian sidelines in preference to an anti-Sicilian, but rather that if the issue is avoiding sharp theory then some of them serve the purpose as well as the better anti-Sicilians.  In other words, the "sharp theory" issue is only an argument for avoiding mainline Open Sicilians and not for avoiding the Open altogether.

The evidence for forcing matters in the centre early on being a bad thing is pretty mixed.  The aforementioned Staunton Gambit isn't that bad for White (the line 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nc6 5.d5 Ne5 6.Qe2, instead of the old 6.Qd4 Nf7, is currently causing Black a few headaches) and the Scotch Game (a particularly good analogy with the Open Sicilian) is currently considered White's second-most serious try for advantage after 1.e4 e5 after the Lopez.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #32 - 08/15/11 at 16:04:37
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I also find it hard to believe that 2.a4 could be as good as 2.Nf3 or 2.Nc3, except from a hypertheoretical perspective (all of these moves lead to a draw).
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #31 - 08/15/11 at 13:08:30
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Maybe the point of 1.e4 c5 2.a4 is to let down any theory and just play chess
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #30 - 08/15/11 at 09:19:47
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/14/11 at 21:38:46:


My 48% argument wasn't meant as warning U1800s to avoid 2.Nf3. But we might speculate about the reasons. Couldn't it be that players with a lower rating don't have the confidence to play 2.Nf3 as it should be played - with the occasional sacrifice of a piece, with the various topical exchange sacrifices, with opposite castling? So they start with 2.Nf3 and 3.d4, and you like their good moves. Then they retreat active pieces, don't trust their calculations, and find themselves in a simplified situation where Black has a strong center. I am not surprised that white U1800s are scoring 7% below expectations in the Open. It requires dynamic play.


I think you are right about this. How many U1800 players regularly play Nd5 sacs, e.g.?
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #29 - 08/15/11 at 09:13:56
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/13/11 at 08:24:11:
Concrete analyses by Top GMs haven't had much influence, they often start at move 15. Anyway, players of all levels did find a few results: 

In the Dutch 1.d4 f5 set-ups with an early e4 are not successful. For example, the Staunton Gambit 2.e4 leads to exchanges and simplification (=). 


I find this a very strange example. In the Staunton, black can hold on to the pawn, making white give up the bishop pair to get it back. However, after 2.Nc3 Black does everything he can to prevent e2-e4.

In the opening it's a good idea to try to get influence in the centre, practically all acknowledged openings are aiming for control of 1-2 particular centre squares. 

But what is the point of 1.e4 c5 2.a4 centre-wise? I see that there can be some ideas about getting a kind of Bb5-system but with the f-pawn unblocked by a Nf3 - though I doubt there will be time to play f4 after already having indulged in 2.a4. 

But playing a move without centre influence so early is likely to give black more options or at least improve the chances in more options, even if white hasn't committed to a certain set-up yet. 

For example, after 2...a6 or 2...g6 I don't see what white can claim to have gained which would give him chances as good as after 2.Nf3. 

Just claiming "equality" for white would not be enough, as in the open Sicilian equality is the prize Black gets for avoiding a lot of inferior positions on the way. So starting with equality and comparing with the ML Najdorf is a case of comparing pineapples to apples - they sound similar but look completely different.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #28 - 08/15/11 at 04:57:12
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Markovich wrote on 08/15/11 at 02:18:55:
Come on, Stefan.  2.a4 is just as good as 2.Nf3?

There really is very scant basis, apart from principle, for disputing the merit of various choices at move 2. And so, having tossed aside chess principles, you are free to maintain such opinions without any real risk of specific analsis proving you wrong. But that one is exceedingly far-fetched, and I respectfully doubt that you have a tree of variations deep enough or robust enough to support it.

Eventually all in chess is specificity, but that doesn't mean that principles are worthless. You could just as well say that 1.a3 is just as good as 1.d4, you know?

Did you see the link? Before criticizing you could at least look at my article. I am tired of the empty talk. Give me a concrete suggestion for Black. I think the logic (principles, if you want) behind the move is pretty good, and yes, I have a tree of variations which only partly went into the article. 

I don't think I ever wrote on 1.a3. My principles do tell me that 1.e4 c5 2.h4 or 2.Nh3 or 2.Qf3 are dubious. However, my principles don't tell me whether 2.Na3 or 2.a4 is better. Sometimes there is no alternative to concrete analysis.

Larry Evans condemned unorthodox ideas. I remember one of his articles in Chess Life, where he found one error in a long analysis by Weaver Adams. On this basis alone Evans attacked Adams in a rude manner, quoting "principles in chess" and that A.'s stuff should never have been printed and so on. With a little effort of his own Evans could have repaired the analysis. But no, he had his principles, and filling two pages with empty phrases meant more to him than simply trying to find a better move.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #27 - 08/15/11 at 02:18:55
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Come on, Stefan.  2.a4 is just as good as 2.Nf3?

There really is very scant basis, apart from principle, for disputing the merit of various choices at move 2. And so, having tossed aside chess principles, you are free to maintain such opinions without any real risk of specific analsis proving you wrong. But that one is exceedingly far-fetched, and I respectfully doubt that you have a tree of variations deep enough or robust enough to support it.

Eventually all in chess is specificity, but that doesn't mean that principles are worthless. You could just as well say that 1.a3 is just as good as 1.d4, you know?
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #26 - 08/14/11 at 22:51:57
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/14/11 at 21:38:46:
[quote author=2C2F03610 link=1312444801/44#44 date=1313350536]Play the Morra on Monday, 2.Nf3 on Tuesday and 2.b4 on Wednesday, why not?


Because it's known to be better, at least at higher levels, to stick to and develop a repertoire. I think Botvinnik was the first person to openly declare this idea, and said he could fit it all in one notebook. In fact it's absolute beginners that play something different every day of the week. 

If you're learning a math book, you don't do part of chapter one monday, part of chapter two tuesday etc., it's easier to study one thing at the time or you just won't know what you're doing.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #25 - 08/14/11 at 21:38:46
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MNb wrote on 08/14/11 at 19:35:36:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/12/11 at 21:49:59:
Is there really no point - 80%, 90%, 99% - at which you say: "it's too much - now I am playing 2.Nc3"? Psychology is part of the game
You still avoid my counterargument that this applies to say the Löwenfish as well. Similar approaches are possible against the Sveshnikov as well. If you don't believe, consult Davies' Tame the Sicilian. It contains an entire repertoire based on the Open Sicilian and still is smaller than several books I own on several Anti-Sicilians. [...]

Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/12/11 at 21:49:59:
Then you claimed again that 2.Nc3 wasn't to be recommended, and that, somehow, 2.Nf3 was the right move. [...]

No, I did not claim that. I claimed that "tons of theory" is the wrong reason to avoid the Open Sicilian, simply because White does not need to study tons of theory to play it. [...] 
Moreover I made another point - an ambitious amateur of U1800, who wants to improve, should usually focus on relatively simple strategy and complex tactics instead of complex strategy and simple tactics. Then offbeat Open Sicilians are perfect. [...] So for the zillionth time: your arguments to avoid the Open Sicilian are wrong. That doesn't imply that 2.Nf3 is better than 2.b3 or 2.Nc3. [...] What I argue is simply this (also for the zillionth time): your arguments to play various Anti-Sicilians also apply to the Löwenfish and the sidelines of the Sveshnikov I mentioned. [...]

I argue for variety in chess and see no reason why non-Nf3-playing U1800s are so often cornered in this forum by the gang of 2.Nf3 advocates. My contribution in this thread was merely the observation that U1800 players score only 48% with 2.Nf3/3.d4. I haven't used a "tons of theory" argument. In my opinion everybody is able to play, after 15 minutes of competent introduction, the Grünfeld, the Nimzo-Indian or the Spanish. 20 minutes for the Catalan. Anybody is free to play the Löwenfish. Or "tame" the Sicilian by means of an early g3. I have not the slightest problems with 2.d4 cxd4 3.Qxd4 Nc6 4.Qd3 - fine with me. About "postponing" the decision to play 2.Nf3 for years - huh? Play the Morra on Monday, 2.Nf3 on Tuesday and 2.b4 on Wednesday, why not? 

I try to understand your line of argumentation. Probably you are assuming that people who don't play 2.Nf3 have an unconscious or conscious fear of too much theory behind 2.Nf3, and are therefore avoiding 2.Nf3 for this reason. That's pretty absurd in my opinion, but such people with distorted ideas about theory may indeed exist. What can we do to cure them? I'd say: who cares? 2.Nc3 or 2.a4 are objectively just as good as 2.Nf3. You try to convince them to make a therapy, looking at sections of the Sicilian which don't look so terribly complicated. Okay, go ahead. In an environment of 99% 2.Nf3 you will still do the same? 

My 48% argument wasn't meant as warning U1800s to avoid 2.Nf3. But we might speculate about the reasons. Couldn't it be that players with a lower rating don't have the confidence to play 2.Nf3 as it should be played - with the occasional sacrifice of a piece, with the various topical exchange sacrifices, with opposite castling? So they start with 2.Nf3 and 3.d4, and you like their good moves. Then they retreat active pieces, don't trust their calculations, and find themselves in a simplified situation where Black has a strong center. I am not surprised that white U1800s are scoring 7% below expectations in the Open. It requires dynamic play.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #24 - 08/14/11 at 20:15:27
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Fromper wrote on 08/08/11 at 22:46:55:
My point was just that I know guys rated 1800-2000 who insist the gambit is completely unsound, and I shouldn't play it, but they can't seem to prove why. And despite checking some of the literature on the subject and looking around a little on the internet, I have yet to see any sort of definite refutation, either.

This is a good reason to keep on playing the Morra Gambit. I only noted that it doesn't apply anymore as soon as White faces stronger opponents.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/12/11 at 21:49:59:
I gave analyses showing that 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 (or even 3.f4 d5 4.d3) 3...d5 is good for White.

This is a good reason to play 2.Nc3. Alas I'm too weak to take benefit of it. I lack the necessary positional skills.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/12/11 at 21:49:59:
I am not religious about converting you to give up 2.Nf3.

You don't have to, because I have played OTB the Morra Gambit, the GPA and even Bb5-variations way more often than the Open Sicilian (only 4 games; score 2½).
In corr. chess I have played the Open Sicilian more often, overall with good results.
Moreover with my Dutch ELO about 1800 I don't belong to the biased stronger players who prefer 2.Nf3 and 3.d4.
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #23 - 08/14/11 at 19:41:14
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My reasoning is simple: Both Open Sicilians and Anti-Sicilians will develop your chess, but if you have to choose between the Open Sicilian and a few Anti-Sicilians as White, Open Sicilians will develop your chess more. Debatable of course, but that is my point of view.
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #22 - 08/14/11 at 19:35:36
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/12/11 at 21:49:59:
Is there really no point - 80%, 90%, 99% - at which you say: "it's too much - now I am playing 2.Nc3"? Psychology is part of the game

You still avoid my counterargument that this applies to say the Löwenfish as well. Similar approaches are possible against the Sveshnikov as well. If you don't believe, consult Davies' Tame the Sicilian. It contains an entire repertoire based on the Open Sicilian and still is smaller than several books I own on several Anti-Sicilians.
As for the Sveshnikov: 6.Nf3 is an easy solution. So is 7.Nd5. White has done well with 9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Nd5 and 11.g3. I would like to recommend the piece sac 11.Bxb5 too, but Black can avoid it with 10...Bg7. Maybe someone likes 11.c3 Bg7 (f5) 12.exf5 Bxf5 13.Nc2 0-0 14.Nce3 Be6 15.g3 better.
Before anyone screams: "but Black can equalize this or that way!" remember: 1.e4 c5 is equal anyhow. If there is an edge after all for White an U1800 player will not be able to maintain it anyway, certainly not in the sophisticated lines you recommend after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/12/11 at 21:49:59:
Then you claimed again that 2.Nc3 wasn't to be recommended, and that, somehow, 2.Nf3 was the right move. While I believe that many "Antis" are fine weapons (including b3, which I played for a while), I am not religious about converting you to give up 2.Nf3.

No, I did not claim that. I claimed that "tons of theory" is the wrong reason to avoid the Open Sicilian, simply because White does not need to study tons of theory to play it. My point of view is this: 1.e4 c5 is equal anyway. So the way to go is posing problems. If anyone thinks he/she can do that with 2.b3, the Closed Sicilian, the GPA or even 2.a4, go ahead.
Moreover I made another point - an ambitious amateur of U1800, who wants to improve, should usually focus on relatively simple strategy and complex tactics instead of complex strategy and simple tactics. Then offbeat Open Sicilians are perfect.
What I specifically attack is the idea of "the Open Sicilians are too much work now, I'll postpone it for a few years". This will lead to postponing it eternally.
Yochanan Afek said something similar about taking up the Ruy Lopez vs. sticking to the Scotch.

If anyone has positive reasons to play some Anti-Sicilian, he/she has my blessings. These days I play 1.d4, so it's not a question for me anymore. Except that the NID, Rubinstein Variation (4.e3) is also equal. Still I have a positive score with it, in corr. chess.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/13/11 at 08:24:11:
if Sveshnikov is solved. But this cheering about the strength of 2.Nf3 is ridiculous.

Then you can wait until the cows come home. And again: I don't cheer about the strength of 2.Nf3. This is another logical fallacy. This one is called a strawman.
So for the zillionth time: your arguments to avoid the Open Sicilian are wrong. That doesn't imply that 2.Nf3 is better than 2.b3 or 2.Nc3. I am certainly not stupid enough to argue that the Löwenfish is stronger than the Czerniak Variation, the Closed and the GPA.
What I argue is simply this (also for the zillionth time): your arguments to play various Anti-Sicilians also apply to the Löwenfish and the sidelines of the Sveshnikov I mentioned. This is exactly what I wrote in the first sentence of this post.
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #21 - 08/13/11 at 09:07:20
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/13/11 at 08:24:11:
Here it is best to ruin your pawn structure for the ending, open the game prematurely, allow all kind of forcing lines and simplifications. And even with best play from Black, White has "winning chances". 

[snip] But this cheering about the strength of 2.Nf3 is ridiculous.


I don't remember exactly what I've said, but I would like to say that I don't necessarily cheer for 2.Nf3 because of it "strength". I am more against the whole idea of players rated below a certain level playing other lines because 2.Nf3 is played so often. It is easier to play good moves and win from a good position than from a worse one.

Of course, 2.Nf3 and 3.d4 seem critical - not necessarily better, even though I also suspect it is anyway - because White has the opening advantage and wants to get the initative by opening the position. As we all know, in closed positions, the significance of a tempo is not as useful as in open positions. Anyway, I want to learn how to play many systems well, in that case I have more fun (at the risk of learning to little about too much) and also can respond to moves like 2. a4, because I know systems in which this move is not needed, or even harmful.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #20 - 08/13/11 at 08:24:11
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Concrete analyses by Top GMs haven't had much influence, they often start at move 15. Anyway, players of all levels did find a few results: 

In the Dutch 1.d4 f5 set-ups with an early e4 are not successful. For example, the Staunton Gambit 2.e4 leads to exchanges and simplification (=). 

Against 1.f4, neither the immediate 1...e5 (+=) nor the various plans after 1...d5 which prepare e7-e5 can fully equalize. 

In the English Opening 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3, only few players like to play 2...Nf6 followed by d5. 

The Spanish is sometimes regarded as White's best system in the Open Games. In contrast to 3.d4 or other "faster" systems it often requires patient manoeuvering. 

[sarcasm] But of course, the Sicilian is the one and only exception. Here it is best to ruin your pawn structure for the ending, open the game prematurely, allow all kind of forcing lines and simplifications. And even with best play from Black, White has "winning chances". [/sarcasm]

Play 2.Nf3, if you want. Maybe one day I'll join the 2.Nf3 camp, if Sveshnikov is solved. But this cheering about the strength of 2.Nf3 is ridiculous.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #19 - 08/13/11 at 01:54:58
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Stefan, inquiring about alternatives to standard lines is great! Recommending 1.e4 c5 2.a4... not so much.

I am certainly glad there are players such as yourself out there to force the followers of orthodoxy to examine their sins and paths to righteousness. I am even certain that there are many ways that White can play against the Sicilian that don't lose.

The concrete approach you take must be a correct approach. But I am also just about certain that the Open Sicilian offers white better chances to win against Black's best play. This isn't just based on craven orthodoxy, but the concrete analysis of generations of top grandmasters (and my own meager attempts in correspondence games).

I tend to play the black side of the Sicilian far more often than I do the white side, and I feel that Black is teetering on the edge against the Open lines. Other lines don't challenge Black's set-up as critically as the Open Sicilian.

I may lose to you after you play 2.a4, but it will be in spite of your opening choice rather than because of it. I even believe that if you were to play the black side of the Sicilian after 2.a4, you would find several good ways to gain an equal game. 



  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #18 - 08/12/11 at 21:55:14
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As a player around Fromper's level, or a little higher (1900-2000 OTB), I can confirm that the advantage of the first move is essentially swamped by the randomness of play at this level.  My results with Black are as good, or better than, my results with the White pieces (This is, probably, because I spend a lot of time on my Black openings, but just play chess with White.  Yes, I realize this is dumb.  I have a great score against my Black repertoire - all my own openings are clearly a forced loss!)

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that for players "down here with the rest of us," playing OTB chess below master strength, opening choice is far more a matter of taste than theoretical validity.  In all probability you will play three or four "second-best" theoretical recommendations and end up in the hinterlands of theory (if not out of it entirely) by move 12.   And if you don't, your opponent will play the London System or something and make "theory" borderline irrelevant.

So the Smith-Morra is probably as good as anything else, although I can't imagine a gambit player not enjoying the actual Open Sicilian, myself.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #17 - 08/12/11 at 21:49:59
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MNb wrote on 08/12/11 at 20:34:12:
I believe you are presenting a logical fallacy.

What counts in chess are concrete moves. I gave analyses showing that 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 (or even 3.f4 d5 4.d3) 3...d5 is good for White. Then you claimed again that 2.Nc3 wasn't to be recommended, and that, somehow, 2.Nf3 was the right move. While I believe that many "Antis" are fine weapons (including b3, which I played for a while), I am not religious about converting you to give up 2.Nf3. Actually I like this move very much. In my mag I published an article "proving" that 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5 8.exd5 Nb8 9.Qf3!? is advantageous for White. However, months later in a strong corr. game an equalizing line was found which I was unable to repair. 

So what is your antidote against the Sveshnikov, MNb? There are other defences which are perfectly sound for Black, but the forcing character of the Sveshnikov makes it particularly hard to find a promising line for White. - Many express their deep belief that 2.Nf3 is the mainline, without ever doing much analysis of their own. They "have heard" that 2.Nf3 is the main line, or they admire top players who are playing 2.Nf3, but sorry, I am not impressed by such arguments. In the 1860s they thought 2.Bc4 is clearly the best move. Today we are still in the stone age of theory, so who can really be sure which move is best? 

Apparently you misunderstood my tipping point argument. Is there really no point - 80%, 90%, 99% - at which you say: "it's too much - now I am playing 2.Nc3"? Psychology is part of the game, and if the overwhelming majority of players - perhaps with the exception of Schaakhamster's town - prefers 2.Nf3, we might want to inquire the alternatives. You cannot really think that 2.Nf3 has all (open positions, dynamics, novel ideas, winning potential) and 2.Nc3 nothing of it. 

Concrete moves are king, but sometimes I try to make the value of alternatives plausible with general observations. Here is my article about 2.a4: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss65.pdf . In my opinion, Myers' Variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4 is a refined version of the Rossolimo. Objectively 2.Nc3 may be better, but its theoretical body has become relatively large, too. In my suggested repertoire for 1.e4 players therefore I decided to prefer 2.a4. - 2200 Levenfish vs perhaps five important 2.a4 games, still a small difference. 
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #16 - 08/12/11 at 20:34:12
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/12/11 at 11:52:56:
It can be lucrative to profit from the prejudice and study a rarer second move in depth.

Exactly the same point can be made for something like the Löwenfish Attack or the Sozin-English Attack hybrid (1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Bc4 e6 followed by Bb3, Be3, f3, Qe2 or Qd2 and O-O-O).
Some numbers again: 2.b3 plus the related 2.Nf3/3.b3 about 12 000 games. The Löwenfish Attack: 2200.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/12/11 at 11:52:56:
I believe that in our situation today, with 70% playing 2.Nf3 followed by 3.d4,

What you consequently and conveniently forget is that your 70% for the largest part consists of topical stuff like the Jugoslav Attack, the Richter Rauser and the Najdorf 6.Bg5. To my best knowledge White is not obliged to play that after 2.Nf3 and 3.d4, but has the very right to deviate from them on move 6.
Some more numbers: with the Löwenfish Attack less than 100 games were played at U1800 level. The 2.c3 Sicilian: 2700 games. The 2.b3 and 2.Nf3/3.b3 Sicilian: more than 250.
I believe you are presenting a logical fallacy.
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #15 - 08/12/11 at 18:40:38
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/12/11 at 11:52:56:
When you see how many people after 1.e4 c5 play 2.Nf3, and that only a minority plays differently, it isn't surprising that in a forum like this the "Play the Open" fraction is twice as strong, or more, and the "Antis" are only a choir of dissonant voices (2.c3 or 2.b3 or GPA or...). Often the 2.Nf3 fans are also the stronger players, so the forum has a strong bias. 

I believe that in our situation today, with 70% playing 2.Nf3 followed by 3.d4, the alternatives are underestimated and not sufficiently prepared by the Blacks. It can be lucrative to profit from the prejudice and study a rarer second move in depth. But it is only my intuitive feeling, statistics cannot really prove my case. The reasoning above that there must be a point when 2.Nf3 is played unreasonably often is probably an argument most people will agree with. But at which percentage do we reach the tipping point? To this key question I don't have an answer, nobody has. It is a bit like the "Laffer curve", and we know how utterly useless in practice this theoretical idea was. So I am writing my articles, on 2.Nc3, 2.Bc4, 2.Na3, 2.b4, 2.a4. That's all I can do to save at least a few souls.
Smiley


The direction in which these souls will be heading after moves like 2.a4, I would not associate with salvation.
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #14 - 08/12/11 at 18:09:24
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/12/11 at 11:52:56:
When you see how many people after 1.e4 c5 play 2.Nf3, and that only a minority plays differently, it isn't surprising that in a forum like this the "Play the Open" fraction is twice as strong, or more, and the "Antis" are only a choir of dissonant voices (2.c3 or 2.b3 or GPA or...). Often the 2.Nf3 fans are also the stronger players, so the forum has a strong bias. 

I believe that in our situation today, with 70% playing 2.Nf3 followed by 3.d4, the alternatives are underestimated and not sufficiently prepared by the Blacks. It can be lucrative to profit from the prejudice and study a rarer second move in depth. But it is only my intuitive feeling, statistics cannot really prove my case. The reasoning above that there must be a point when 2.Nf3 is played unreasonably often is probably an argument most people will agree with. But at which percentage do we reach the tipping point? To this key question I don't have an answer, nobody has. It is a bit like the "Laffer curve", and we know how utterly useless in practice this theoretical idea was. So I am writing my articles, on 2.Nc3, 2.Bc4, 2.Na3, 2.b4, 2.a4. That's all I can do to save at least a few souls.
Smiley

 
Black could also be often aware of his weakness against some openings, but is trying to learn his defence against the main lines first. I think it's reasonable to study one opening like this first, especially if the player buys a book/dvd on it and sees many variations and ideas. Otherwise it is hard to get a feeling for the middle game. Though of course it is a good idea to alert them to fact anyway. I wonder if we could have a distribution set/curve of what "<1800" chessbase statistics actually means or at least the average of what we're talking about.  
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #13 - 08/12/11 at 13:31:37
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I'm keen on seeing a good analysis on 1.e4 c5 2.b3 (or 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 ... 3.b3) with all the good ideas that white can produce after..  Wink
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #12 - 08/12/11 at 13:13:21
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I like the Open Sicilian myself, but I also like the Anti-Sicilians, especially the Alapin, which I think is only marginally inferior to the Open Sicilian.
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #11 - 08/12/11 at 13:12:47
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/12/11 at 11:52:56:
When you see how many people after 1.e4 c5 play 2.Nf3, and that only a minority plays differently, it isn't surprising that in a forum like this the "Play the Open" fraction is twice as strong, or more, and the "Antis" are only a choir of dissonant voices (2.c3 or 2.b3 or GPA or...). Often the 2.Nf3 fans are also the stronger players, so the forum has a strong bias. 

I believe that in our situation today, with 70% playing 2.Nf3 followed by 3.d4, the alternatives are underestimated and not sufficiently prepared by the Blacks. It can be lucrative to profit from the prejudice and study a rarer second move in depth. But it is only my intuitive feeling, statistics cannot really prove my case. The reasoning above that there must be a point when 2.Nf3 is played unreasonably often is probably an argument most people will agree with. But at which percentage do we reach the tipping point? To this key question I don't have an answer, nobody has. It is a bit like the "Laffer curve", and we know how utterly useless in practice this theoretical idea was. So I am writing my articles, on 2.Nc3, 2.Bc4, 2.Na3, 2.b4, 2.a4. That's all I can do to save at least a few souls.
Smiley


Well that is not my experience as an average chess player. Perhaps it is more the case at higher levels but if you play the sicilian around here you'll be hit by a barrage of anti-sicilian (all sorts...). 
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #10 - 08/12/11 at 12:37:17
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Do you really analyse positions like 1.e4 c5 2.a4?
On the search for "new positions" this approach seems to me more than a bit sophisticated. Doesn´t the king´s gambit need all your help to get playable? Smiley

Btw. - I really would like to read more kassiber editions. Any forecast, when the next booklet is ready?
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #9 - 08/12/11 at 11:52:56
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When you see how many people after 1.e4 c5 play 2.Nf3, and that only a minority plays differently, it isn't surprising that in a forum like this the "Play the Open" fraction is twice as strong, or more, and the "Antis" are only a choir of dissonant voices (2.c3 or 2.b3 or GPA or...). Often the 2.Nf3 fans are also the stronger players, so the forum has a strong bias. 

I believe that in our situation today, with 70% playing 2.Nf3 followed by 3.d4, the alternatives are underestimated and not sufficiently prepared by the Blacks. It can be lucrative to profit from the prejudice and study a rarer second move in depth. But it is only my intuitive feeling, statistics cannot really prove my case. The reasoning above that there must be a point when 2.Nf3 is played unreasonably often is probably an argument most people will agree with. But at which percentage do we reach the tipping point? To this key question I don't have an answer, nobody has. It is a bit like the "Laffer curve", and we know how utterly useless in practice this theoretical idea was. So I am writing my articles, on 2.Nc3, 2.Bc4, 2.Na3, 2.b4, 2.a4. That's all I can do to save at least a few souls.
Smiley
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #8 - 08/12/11 at 09:47:32
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 08/10/11 at 18:58:00:
It seems to me like people are just selecting the data to try to say he's wrong, which is 100% selective bias.

Who am I supposed to say he is wrong?
As far as I know FM Bücker and I are only presenting interesting data. Drawing a conclusion is an entirely different matter.
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #7 - 08/10/11 at 19:50:13
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I recall reading in a few sources that White's winning percentage increases from 51-52 to around 56-57 as you reach the highest levels.  In particular it is hard for Black to play for a win at the highest level if White is happy with a draw.

On the subject of losing openings, I think the range may well actually be quite narrow, unless we limit the search to forcing sidelines (such as 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 3.Nxe5 fxe5).  I reckon that the Halloween Gambit might just give White the worse of a draw (Black's advantage was =+ according to Wind in Kaissiber and might stretch to -/+, but it isn't decisive).   Similarly, the Omega Gambit (1.d4 Nf6 2.e4) seems to give Black an advantage in the region of =+ to -/+, so I think White can probably draw there with best play.  That's even before we get around to the more respectable gambits like the Morra and Blackmar-Diemer mentioned above, which are probably equal (some analysts try to claim a small edge for Black, but nowhere near winning).

Considering some maligned Black openings, having been involved in extensive analysis of the Englund Gambit, I believe Black probably has the worse of a draw there, as many of the deepest lines leave Black with good drawing chances in a worse ending, and the Latvian is much the same.  Even after 1.e4 f5 2.exf5 Nf6 I would merely assess the position as clearly better for White. 
 
On the other hand I reckon that the Jerome Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.Bxf7+) is probably lost for White with best play.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #6 - 08/10/11 at 18:58:00
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You can find exceptions but there are also exceptions and illogical data found even the 2600+ section. It seems to me like people are just selecting the data to try to say he's wrong, which is 100% selective bias. 
  
Smyslov Fan was quite correct to state there is a significant first-move advantage across all levels at least 1800+. Though the higher up you get the more draws you are likely to get (or be forced into) also, which impacts on White's performance. I think for example if you discounted draws that you would find the first-move advantage is made significantly more of at the higher levels, which is logical.  
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #5 - 08/10/11 at 16:44:16
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MNb wrote on 08/10/11 at 16:04:04:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/10/11 at 07:37:58:
Look at the Open Sicilian (B34-B99). In MegaBase (2008), in games between 2500+ players, White scores 56%. In games between 1800- players, White scores only 48%. 

The numbers for the Closed Sicilian (2.Nc3): 2500+ White scores 51%; 1800- White scores 52%. (In each case, I have only looked at 1975 and later, not the pre-Elo era.)

And not to forget 2.a4, of course, which scores 57%.

According to my database the numbers are different for ELO 1800-. Open Sicilian: 50%. Closed Sicilian: 55%. But note 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5: White scores 31% (2½/8). A lot better is the GPA-line 3.f4 d5: 50%. Go figure.

With 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5, for players 900-1800 Elo, year 1975 or later, I find 514 games in MegaBase 2008, the result is 48% for White. (2500+: 58%)

These 2.a4 games (133 games) were not from MegaBase alone, many engine games - so the 57% are irrelevant. From the eight games in the MegaBase, only the two games by Gerard Welling showed an understanding of the position. Still, a player who hates the gambling of opposite castling, who knows his "Closed" well (and there are subtleties in 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5, as in 2.a4 or in the Rossolimo), isn't always well advised to play the Open Sicilian.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #4 - 08/10/11 at 16:04:04
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/10/11 at 07:37:58:
Look at the Open Sicilian (B34-B99). In MegaBase (2008), in games between 2500+ players, White scores 56%. In games between 1800- players, White scores only 48%. 

The numbers for the Closed Sicilian (2.Nc3): 2500+ White scores 51%; 1800- White scores 52%. (In each case, I have only looked at 1975 and later, not the pre-Elo era.)

And not to forget 2.a4, of course, which scores 57%.

According to my database the numbers are different for ELO 1800-. Open Sicilian: 50%. Closed Sicilian: 55%. But note 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5: White scores 31% (2½/8). A lot better is the GPA-line 3.f4 d5: 50%. Go figure.
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #3 - 08/10/11 at 08:39:40
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/10/11 at 07:37:58:
[quote author=754B5F554A495079604748260 link=1312444801/22#22 date=1312957780]

And not to forget 2.a4, of course, which scores 57%.


The question is, does White score 57 % because of 2.a4 or despite of? As we have discussed before, openings rarely decided the outcome in games between U1800 players. But of course it helps to be able to choose how to start the game. It seems to me that often in these games there is a race to deviate first in order to avoid the opponents opening knowledge in the main lines. Hence the many Exchange Slav, QGD, Caro-Kann, French, Spanish etc. These are the first lines I prepare for when learning a new opening, and the first I look at when preparing for a game.

Even under 2200 there are many players that don't want to play the main lines out of fear of getting beaten by book moves.

This could be a reason "objectively" unsound openings do reasonably well, because you don't prepare for these because you skip over them due to time constraint and ignorance. The people that play these openings still know how to handle most of the positions and U1800 this is believed to be more critical than playing a sound opening I think. However, I would rather try to get a good positions based on sound moves than take a chance with an unsound variation.
  
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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #2 - 08/10/11 at 08:00:57
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GabrielGale wrote on 08/10/11 at 04:30:05:
TN wrote on 08/08/11 at 21:01:14:

Don't panic! My new book, 'Play the Suttles Sniper', will be published in the next week, and refutes 1.e4, based on analysis by a team of Duncan Suttles, Charlie Storey and Roman Dzindzichashvili.


Hey, TN, I enjoy your posts and learned much from them but don't bag Duncan Suttles nor place him in the same category as Charlie Sniper or Roman Dzindi. Even Yasser endorsed him, you can't say that of Sniper, can you?

Suttles never proselytise like Sniper and said you muct play like him. In fact Bruce Harper expressly told readers not to play like Suttles or play at own risk. Suttles never peddled DVDs promising crushing wins with White or Black like Roman.  You cannot blame a GM for trying to get out of book as quickly as you can. Look at Bent Larsen, or for that matter, look at the recent games of Matthew Sadler, this from the author of the books on QGD, Slav and Semi-Slav. And look, what did Svidler play against Kramnik and win? The Reti/Reversed KI!


It wasn't my intention to bag out Suttles; in fact I have had a lot of fun playing some of his openings online. With my post I was trying to show that the nature of repertoire books are that soon after one repertoire book is published, a repertoire book for the other side is also published. I've even seen cases of authors writing a repertoire book on one opening and later write a book on how to beat that opening. I included Suttles in the above post to try and show that Storey and Dzindzichashvili also have original ideas in their works. 

I am sorry if my post offended you.
  

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Re: Openings that you suspect are a forced loss?
Reply #1 - 08/10/11 at 07:37:58
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/10/11 at 06:29:40:
Just FYI: The class players still see a statistical advantage for being white. In games between players rated under 1800, that difference is about 53-47% for white. 

As a point of comparison, +2500 rated players have an average of 55-45%.

So yes, the advantage of the first move is real, even for fish. It's only slightly more pronounced among grandmasters.

An interesting hypothesis, but I am not sure whether this is right for all kind of systems. Look at the Open Sicilian (B34-B99). In MegaBase (2008), in games between 2500+ players, White scores 56%. In games between 1800- players, White scores only 48%. 

The numbers for the Closed Sicilian (2.Nc3): 2500+ White scores 51%; 1800- White scores 52%. (In each case, I have only looked at 1975 and later, not the pre-Elo era.)

And not to forget 2.a4, of course, which scores 57%.
  
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B20: Myers' Variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4
08/17/11 at 22:39:39
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The variation 1.e4 c5 2.a4 was invented by the American opening theoretician and author Hugh Edward Myers (1930-2008), inspired by a discussion in 1958 about 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 with GM Nicolas Rossolimo. The latter liked to combine his pet line with an early a2-a4. Myers' stem games with 2.a4 from the 1960s appeared with instructive comments in Exploring the Chess Openings (1978) and in Myers' autobiography A Chess Explorer (2002). 

My own article http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss65.pdf gives an introduction into the ideas, recommending 2.a4 as part of my semi-unusual repertoire for 1.e4 players. The line remained a rarity, but the Dutch IM Gerard Welling used it with success. In his games Welling follows Myers' main concept: White hopes for a version of the Rossolimo Variation, but in contrast to the beginning 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 White may be able to choose a different set-up including f4 or develop his king's knight to e2 after, say 1.e4 c5 2.a4 Nc6 3.Bb5 or 2...Bd7 3.Bb5+. Moreover, in contrast to 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6, when White must be familiar with another system, the Myers Variation offers possibilities to steer the game into Rossolimo channels (or d6 Bb5+ channels) even against 2...g6. - To the following game I added some analysis in order to illustrate White's options after 2...g6. 

  
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