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Poll Question: Best Player to NOT win the World Championship?
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Akiba Rubinstein    
  9 (12.0%)
Mikhail Chigorin    
  0 (0.0%)
Harry Pillsbury    
  16 (21.3%)
Siegbert Tarrasch    
  2 (2.7%)
Aron Nimzowitsch    
  2 (2.7%)
Paul Keres    
  15 (20.0%)
David Bronstein    
  7 (9.3%)
Viktor Korchnoi    
  18 (24.0%)
Vassily Ivanchuk    
  1 (1.3%)
other....    
  5 (6.7%)




Total votes: 75
« Last Modified by: Nietzsche on: 07/26/06 at 20:30:02 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The greatest player to NOT win World Championship (Read 7054 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #145 - 11/24/06 at 19:47:33
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Boy, my memory isn't what it used to be.  At least I don't think it is. Cry

The game I was "remembering" was Kasparov-Kupreichik from round 14 of the 47 USSR Championship.  The move that I obviously didn't remember was 13...Qxd4!! after:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dc4 5.e4 b5 6.e5 Nd5 7.a4 e6 8.ab5 Nc3 9.bc3 cb5 10.Ng5 Bb7 (forced) 11.Qh5 Qd7 12.Nh7? Nc6 13.Nf8  Kupreichik actually played 13...RxQh5 and lost.
  
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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #144 - 11/22/06 at 13:25:16
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/21/06 at 06:46:04:
The Razuvaev game played in 1979 contains one of the greatest moves never played against Kasparov (...Nd5!!).  It refuted an interesting line in the Geller Gambit. 

The only 1979 Kasparov-Razuvaev game I know of is a Grunfeld (cited below).  Am I missing something, or are you thinking of another game?

Kasparov,Garry (2545) - Razuvaev,Yuri S (2470) [D85]
URS-ch47 Minsk (8), 12.1979
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 7.Nf3 c5 8.Be3 Bg4 9.Qa4+ Nc6 10.Ne5 cxd4 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.cxd4 0–0 13.Rc1 Bd7 14.Rc5 Qb8 15.Bd3 e5 16.Bc2 exd4 17.Bxd4 Qd6 18.Be3 Be5 19.0–0 Qc7 20.f4 Bd6 21.Ra5 c5 22.Qa3 Rfc8 23.Qc3 Bf8 24.e5 Rab8 25.f5 Bg7 26.fxg6 hxg6 27.Rxc5 Qxe5 28.Qxe5 Bxe5 29.Bxg6 Bxh2+ 30.Kxh2 fxg6 31.Rg5 Rc6 ½–½
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #143 - 11/21/06 at 06:46:04
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From memory:  Lautier lost at least one (and I think two) games in the KID.

The Razuvaev game played in 1979 contains one of the greatest moves never played against Kasparov (...Nd5!!).  It refuted an interesting line in the Geller Gambit. 

  
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MNb
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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #142 - 11/16/06 at 21:16:27
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I had not thought of Akopian and Gulko.
That 2002 game was a rapid game indeed. The three games with classic time control all were drawn.
It indeed looks very much like Gulko has the best score against The Boss. Seven games from 1978 to 1995, three wins and one loss: that's impressive.

Lautier has won two games, but lost three plus one in a rapid game.
Radjabov also has 50%: he lost at Moscow 2002. There are also 4 draws.
Three others with 50% are Sturua and Sideif Sade. All of their games against Kasparov were played before he became WCh.
Razuvajev has 75%: one win in 1978, one draw in 1979.
  

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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #141 - 11/16/06 at 16:11:24
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I'm pretty sure those were rapids. Try looking at the game dates. Weren't they playing more than one round a day?
  
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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #140 - 11/16/06 at 15:33:47
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IMJohnCox wrote on 11/16/06 at 11:30:06:
Gulko - good call, I suspect. Was the Akopian loss not a rapid game?! And I suppose that Radjabov only played GK once....

I cant make that out. It is from the Russia vs the rest match:
[Event "RUS-The World"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "2002.09.08"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Akopian,Vladimir"]
[Black "Kasparov,Garry"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B30"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 e6 4.0-0 Nge7 5.b3 a6 6.Bxc6 Nxc6 7.Bb2 b5 8.c4 bxc4 9.bxc4 Rb8 10.Bc3 d6 11.Na3 e5 12.Nc2 Be7 13.Ne3 0-0 14.d3 Qe8 15.Rb1 Rxb1 16.Qxb1 Bd8 17.Nd2 g6 18.Nd5 f5 19.exf5 gxf5 20.f4 Rf7 21.Qe1 Rg7 22.Nf3 Qg6 23.g3 Rf7 24.fxe5 f4 25.exd6 fxg3 1-0

Akopian did lose some blitz games though.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #139 - 11/16/06 at 11:30:06
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Gulko - good call, I suspect. Was the Akopian loss not a rapid game?! And I suppose that Radjabov only played GK once....

MNb, I don't think he did, but I think we can allow him the consultation game. Perhaps these things were taken more seriously then, and maybe there was even a prize for the winner? Capa certainly took them seriously.

I read the Unknown Capablanca again in the bath and it really is an excellent book, albeit in a rather hero-worshipping vein which I quite like.
  
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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #138 - 11/16/06 at 09:21:28
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And also didn't Gulko have a good record against Gary K

Andrew Brett
  
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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #137 - 11/16/06 at 09:20:41
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I think that Lautier had a good score against Kasparov in real games as opposed to rapids.

Andrew Brett
  
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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #136 - 11/16/06 at 07:59:06
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Not sure but I thought Kasparov never beat Akopian, while he lost at least once.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #135 - 11/15/06 at 21:29:07
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When did Capablanca take revenge on Iljin-Zjenevsky then for Moscow 1925 in a tournament game? I assumed you already had mentioned him.

Concering Kasparov we can make things a bit harder: who has at least 50%, having played at least 2 games? That rules out Cholmov and quite a few others.
According to my database Murray Chandler even has 2/2, but one game is a simul.
I have found at least three; besides Petrosjan (2½/5) two others are not even unknown.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #134 - 11/15/06 at 10:21:58
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Well if simuls are allowed I have a plus score against Karpov...but as for Capablanca it seems to be just Sultan Khan, Verlinsky and Keres, unless anyone has a different candidate. Of course it's much harder now. I wonder how many plus scores Kasparov leaves outstanding? I'd guess that relatively speaking quite a lot of 70's Soviet GM/IMs of that period beat him in 1978-80 and then never saw him again. Mochalov, for one.

I rather liked the idea of a Steinitz number.  I suppose given Steinitz stopped 100 years ago 4 would be a good achievement. Sir George Thomas must surely have beaten someone who once beat Steinitz, mustn't he? And you'd think I could come up with someone I'd once beaten who once beat SGT. (thinks) Actually I can't come up with even someone I've played who ever played SGT. Bernard Cafferty, conceivably? 100 years is a long time.
  
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MNb
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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #133 - 11/15/06 at 02:24:00
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If simuls are allowed, Botvinnik also has a positive score against Capa: Leningrad 1925!

Henry Ernest Atkins has 50%, but I suspect that London 1913 was an informal game. I suspect the same for Stoltz-Capablanca, Stockholm 1928.
Sämisch lost in Moscow 1925, but took revenge in Carlsbad 1929: also 50%!
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #132 - 11/14/06 at 22:32:52
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MNb: I was speaking of the list of people who had a plus score against Capa. I forgot to check whether he'd played Eliskases before - so just Keres, then, I think?

I don't think there's a translation of the book you mention, no. Winter wrote a book on Capa, I think, which I don't have but would like to.

Willempie: the likeliest explanation was correct, ie I misremembered the table I'd been looking at. It was Fine all along. I grovel.
  
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Re: The greatest player to NOT win World Champions
Reply #131 - 11/14/06 at 21:36:57
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No mention of Svetozar Gligoric??????????????
  
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