Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Stonewall (stupid?) question (Read 8011 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Stonewall (stupid?) question
Reply #12 - 08/08/07 at 01:39:32
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MNb, 

Thanks for the suggestion but your move order runs afoul of my playing the White side of the Leningrad Dutch which I do with relish.

I generally prefer to go without c4 than without g3.

So my move order against a generic opponent would usually go something like:

1.d4 f5 2.g3 (postponing the development of either Knight shows that I've read Kramnik's article) e6 3.Bg2

Against an opponent who definitely plays only the Dutch, I may start with 1.Nf3 f5 2.g3.  This makes transitions to the English a little easier, but it does limit me in other ways.  I'll dig up my notes from Khalifman's series OFWATK and see what I used to play.  Still, Black seems to be coming up with improvements on Khalifman lately.   I need either to update my own knowledge or switch to the English more often. Tongue
  
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MNb
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Re: Stonewall (stupid?) question
Reply #11 - 08/08/07 at 01:23:26
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So now for something completely different?
The best way avoiding getting attacked is to begin an attack yourself ... White does not have to play that kingside fianchetto.

1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.e3 d5 (there is ...Bb4 of course and also ...Be7) 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bd3 Bd6 7.b3 intending to castle queenside might suit you. I would not call this option up to date, rather old-fashioned. Another objection might be, that you are the one who is going to sac - with g2-g4.
Anyhow, Rubinstein's Variation is not very popular (anymore? yet?), so surprise will be very likely on your side.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Stonewall (stupid?) question
Reply #10 - 08/07/07 at 21:22:27
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I've been having trouble against the Stonewall again.  I hate this.  Every time I think I've figured out a way to get a good game, someone comes along with an idea I haven't seen before.

Lately, I've been trying move orders involving Bf4, Ne5 and f2-f3 because I've had so much practical trouble with Ne4 and pawn sacs on f4.  This has left my light-squared bishop entombed in pawns and my king is still not safe!  I really dislike b3 and Ba3 ideas, so when I face a known Stonewall player I've switched to the English with d3.   

I feel like I'm chickening out, but does anyone have an up-to-date antidote to the Stonewall that doesn't give Black a free king-side attack?
  
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chk
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Re: Stonewall (stupid?) question
Reply #9 - 03/19/07 at 09:12:33
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..or d5-d6.. Wink
  

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Re: Stonewall (stupid?) question
Reply #8 - 03/19/07 at 05:59:53
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Geof_Strayer wrote on 03/19/07 at 00:48:21:
 I experimented with the Old Stonewall some and found that in a number of positions my best move seemed to be Be7-d6, which sort of tended to raise doubts about the Be7 move in the first place.
        - Geof


I would have thought that in a number of positions your best move is ...f5-f7.
  
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Re: Stonewall (stupid?) question
Reply #7 - 03/19/07 at 00:48:21
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In addition to the other points, I also think that today the lines in the Stonewall where the Black Queen makes a quick trip to the kingside (Qd8-e8-h5) are considered somewhat inferior, and if the Queen isn't going to the kingside then its best square is e7!  Which makes it somewhat problematic if there's already another piece sitting there (say, a Bishop that really belongs on d6 anyway).  I experimented with the Old Stonewall some and found that in a number of positions my best move seemed to be Be7-d6, which sort of tended to raise doubts about the Be7 move in the first place.

Of course, Be7 is playable (even the old Qe8-h5 lines are playable) but these really aren't the set-ups that make the Stonewall a reasonably attractive opening, because, although quite solid, they tend to be too passive if handled correctly by White.  The Modern Stonewall has both the solidity of the Old Stonewall and a reasonable amount of dynamic potential, particularly in those lines where Black fianchettos the light-squared Bishop.

        - Geof
  
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Alesab
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Re: Stonewall (stupid?) question
Reply #6 - 03/13/07 at 16:58:43
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Alesab wrote on 03/13/07 at 16:58:09:
 
There is also some line with Nbd2 and a quick Ne5 which is supposed to be very good against the ....Be7 lines and is impossible after ...Bd6 because e5 is en prise. I forget the exact order, but it's in Khalifman and also my own great work Starting Out 1 d4.



So the change between the Bd6 and a Knight Ne5 is good for Blak, isn't it?
Is it true by a general point of view ?? It looks strange exchange my best Bishop with a Knight that white
can easily re-create by Nb1-d2-f3 , if he wants.

  
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Re: Stonewall (stupid?) question
Reply #5 - 03/13/07 at 16:58:09
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There is also some line with Nbd2 and a quick Ne5 which is supposed to be very good against the ....Be7 lines and is impossible after ...Bd6 because e5 is en prise. I forget the exact order, but it's in Khalifman and also my own great work Starting Out 1 d4.



So the change between the Bd6 and a Knight Ne5 is good for Blak, isn't it?
Is it true by a general point of view ?? It looks strange exchange my best Bishop with a Knight that white
can easily re-create by Nb1-d2-f3 , if he wants.
  
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Re: Stonewall (stupid?) question
Reply #4 - 03/12/07 at 16:29:10
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IMJohnCox wrote on 03/12/07 at 13:46:00:
Pretty much. b3 systems work better against ...Be7 and so does the Nbd2 stuff.

Bf4 was once thought to be the theoretical problem with ...Bd6. As I understand it this, while still critical, is not thought quite so fearsome. The weakening of White's king is more annoying than it might seem.

I don't know that there is an expert consensus on how exactly to meet the ...Bd6 Stonewall, although my GW presented an exquisitely reasoned approach based on a game Khenkin-(I think) Vaisser.

It would be interesting to know what Kramnik thinks of it these days.


Yes, I can remember when ...Bd6 was held to be naive because of Bf4.  When this way of playing the Stonewall became popular, I recall being surprised by the claim that after ...Bxf4 and gxf4, Black is compensated by the weakness of White's king.  That conclusion appears to have been essential to the viability of ...Bd6 and I think it is what is mostly responsible for the modern popularity, such as it is, of the Stonewall.

The limits of my understanding of this game are such that when I look at Black's standard positions in the Stonewall, I absolutely cringe.  The sawtooth pawn setup just looks profoundly ugly to me and seems to defy the gods of chess.  This shows, I suppose, that if I studied this line I would contribute to my understanding of the game.  But honestly, when I look a Aagaard's book, the diagrams revolt me.

  

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Re: Stonewall (stupid?) question
Reply #3 - 03/12/07 at 13:46:00
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Pretty much. b3 systems work better against ...Be7 and so does the Nbd2 stuff.

Bf4 was once thought to be the theoretical problem with ...Bd6. As I understand it this, while still critical, is not thought quite so fearsome. The weakening of White's king is more annoying than it might seem.

I don't know that there is an expert consensus on how exactly to meet the ...Bd6 Stonewall, although my GW presented an exquisitely reasoned approach based on a game Khenkin-(I think) Vaisser.

It would be interesting to know what Kramnik thinks of it these days.
  
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Re: Stonewall (stupid?) question
Reply #2 - 03/12/07 at 13:12:11
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Thanks for the explanation.
If I understand it, Ba3 is good in case of black playing Be7 and having already castled and in case of Bd6, Bf4 could be the "solution".
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Stonewall (stupid?) question
Reply #1 - 03/12/07 at 12:22:56
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Well, one point is that you can simply meet b3 with ...Qe7. Then White has to play either Bb2 and Qc1, wasting time, or a4 a5, creating a black-squared hole on b4 and making the exchange of black-squared bishops of questionable value anyway, if he wants to play Ba3. In the former case Black can arrange things so that he hasn't yet had to castle and then meet Ba3 with a double exchange and ...Ke7, achieving easy equality according to Kramnik's famous article in 'Opening Preparation'.

Basically ...Bd6 must be better unless Bf4 is a good move. d6 is just a better square; aiming at e5 and not taking the queen's square. Once methods were found against Bf4 Bxf4; gxf4, ...Be7 went out of fashion.

There is also some line with Nbd2 and a quick Ne5 which is supposed to be very good against the ....Be7 lines and is impossible after ...Bd6 because e5 is en prise. I forget the exact order, but it's in Khalifman and also my own great work Starting Out 1 d4.
  
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thibdb13
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Stonewall (stupid?) question
03/12/07 at 11:06:02
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I'd like to know why the Stonewall with Be7 is considered old-fashioned. Does it mean it is less good than Bd6, and why?
Till now I was used to play, as white, b3 and Ba3 against both variations but I'd like wheather they are subtilities that can improve white's situation... Huh
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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