(UTC)
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › Daring Defences to 1. d4 › Dutch › Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
(Moderators: CraigEvans, Hadron, proustiskeen)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ? (Read 18575 times)
rossia
Senior Member
****
Offline


Saw: "Game Over!"

Posts: 335
Location: Irkutsk
Joined: 09/17/07
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #27 - 02/28/08 at 18:37:16
Post Tools
Fashion is a cruel lady, and she follows only those who have more money...

Just like in chess...

So why is Classical Dutch currently not topical? Lady fashion...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #26 - 02/27/08 at 02:06:49
Post Tools
Cheesy Most Dutchies travel to France via Belgium ....
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drkodos
God Member
*****
Offline


I see....stars.

Posts: 778
Location: Jupiter, and beyond
Joined: 03/29/07
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #25 - 02/26/08 at 23:13:17
Post Tools
alumbrado wrote on 02/26/08 at 19:44:46:
Indeed.  And I can testify also that 1...e6 is fantastically annoying to meet!

Incidentally, you can also play 1...e6 in connection with an ...e6 Sicilian (1.Nf3 e6 2.e4 c5!)


Agreed, I have oft found it annoying.   Grin  


Black can hit out with the c5 strike after either of white 2nd central pawns moves (e4/c4), so the fanatical can get great use of it as a "system" defense.  


Creates repertoire issues for me because I like to play 2.Nc3 lines v. the Dutchie, but after 1. ...e6 would prefer to go to France. So now I have fixed my chess maps to show that the road from the Dutch to the French often goes through Sicily.  Cheesy 




  
I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #24 - 02/26/08 at 19:44:46
Post Tools
Indeed.  And I can testify also that 1...e6 is fantastically annoying to meet!

Incidentally, you can also play 1...e6 in connection with an ...e6 Sicilian (1.Nf3 e6 2.e4 c5!) or if you are the adventurous sort, you could always meet 2.e4 with 2...b6!? - it is not something I'd advise but it's perfectly playable and if you're prepared to play the Dutch ... well ... Roll Eyes
  
If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #23 - 02/26/08 at 16:19:29
Post Tools
DoubledPawns wrote on 02/26/08 at 06:18:09:
The Dutch can indeed be played against an English/Reti setup, but 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 has proven to be slightly better for White and very frustrating for Black. I would recommend 1...d6 instead of 1...f5;

When Black combines the Classical Dutch with the French, 1.Nf3 e6 solves all transpositional problems: 2.d3 d5.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Viking
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 673
Location: Norway
Joined: 10/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #22 - 02/26/08 at 14:26:59
Post Tools
I dont understand....

If u play 1.e4 c5

then u should have no problem with 1.Nf3 d6 2.e4 c5.....


On second thought It may have to do with wich sicilian u play!?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rossia
Senior Member
****
Offline


Saw: "Game Over!"

Posts: 335
Location: Irkutsk
Joined: 09/17/07
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #21 - 02/26/08 at 14:18:21
Post Tools
Viking wrote on 02/26/08 at 14:07:20:
rossia wrote on 02/26/08 at 13:58:53:

2. If I play 1... d6 should I then know how to play Philidor Defence if White proceeds with 2.e4, or even Pirc is on the table?


Pirc or play 2..c5 leading to standard sicilian.


The main problem is that I play 1... e5 and 1... c5 on White's 1.e4!

What to do now? I think that I should then choose straitforward 1... f5!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Viking
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 673
Location: Norway
Joined: 10/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #20 - 02/26/08 at 14:07:20
Post Tools
rossia wrote on 02/26/08 at 13:58:53:

2. If I play 1... d6 should I then know how to play Philidor Defence if White proceeds with 2.e4, or even Pirc is on the table?


Pirc or play 2..c5 leading to standard sicilian.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rossia
Senior Member
****
Offline


Saw: "Game Over!"

Posts: 335
Location: Irkutsk
Joined: 09/17/07
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #19 - 02/26/08 at 13:58:53
Post Tools
Mr. Alumbardo, I have some questions:

1. Is it good to play 1... d6 when White players expect to throw Black from the chair with some gambit and odd lines knowing that he plays for example Leningrad Dutch?

2. If I play 1... d6 should I then know how to play Philidor Defence if White proceeds with 2.e4, or even Pirc is on the table?

I can hardly wait to see Kindermann's "Leningrad System" and his suggested repertoire!

Bye  Cheesy
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #18 - 02/26/08 at 08:23:23
Post Tools
Yes, play 1...d6 by all means, but you should also be aware that 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 f5 3.Nc3!? Nf6 4.Bg5 is not entirely wthout its points.
  
If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
DoubledPawns
Senior Member
****
Offline


1.a3 e5 2.Nc3 Ba3 3.Ne4
Bf8 4.Ra5 Ke7 5.Re5#

Posts: 283
Joined: 02/01/08
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #17 - 02/26/08 at 06:18:09
Post Tools
The Dutch can indeed be played against an English/Reti setup, but 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 has proven to be slightly better for White and very frustrating for Black. I would recommend 1...d6 instead of 1...f5, since very few 1.Nf3 devotees have a detailed knowledge of 1.e4 as White (since after 2.e4 Black can play 2...e5, transposing to a Phillidor, 2...g6, transposing to the Modern, or 2...c5, transposing to the Sicilian).

White could still consider 2.Nc3 against a Dutch player, with the idea of 2...f5 3.e4, but then 2...g6 will lead to a good version of the Pirc or Modern.
  
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something - Plato
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
winawer77
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 249
Location: UK
Joined: 03/31/07
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #16 - 02/25/08 at 18:03:59
Post Tools
I don't think that the Classical Dutch is that rare, certainly not below 2300, and certainly not over the pas few years. Much of this popularity is due to the aforementioned Williams book, which is a very good intro to this interesting opening. I wouldn't rely on this book alone, though. This is even more the case when playing in International tournaments where your opponents can prepare. Its certainly got a lot of things going for it - its a 'system' opening, in which the same setup can be played regardless of White's moves, or even against an English/Reti setup, after 1.Nf3 or 1.c4, for example. 

The ideas behind this opening are quite easy to understand, this is both a blessing and curse - although you can play the simpler lines based mainly upon knowing the typical plans etc, White is also well placed to meet them as Black's position lacks a certain flexibility to respond in too many different ways. As I see it, its either ...Qe8-h5 with an attack, or ...Ne4 + ...Bf6 followed by ...e5. The Leningrad, on the other hand, can be met with three very different approaches, all based on the choice on Black's 7th move - 7...Qe8, 7...c6 and 7...Nc6.

The Classical Dutch devotees are starting to move away though, and I am facing it OTB much less than before. Currently, the Slav/Semi-Slav and QGD constitute the majority of systems I come up against.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #15 - 02/23/08 at 08:56:22
Post Tools
As a long time Leningrader, I'd advice against having the dutch as an occasional surprise weapon - especially if one is usually playing one of the QG systems as black. It's like usually driving a car and once in a while hop on a motorcycle...

The good news is that a dedicated dutch player has a lot of alternatives, and by using several of them, tournament opponents are likely to either prepare an early sideline or avoid allowing the dutch - rather than preparing mainlines against 2-3 systems. 
(E.g. in the Leningrad black has 7...Qe8, 7...c6, 7...Nc6 8.d5 Na5/Ne5, and even 7...e6!? - Iljin players can vary with 7...Qe8/7...a5 or try a Stonewall or why not Alekhine's 6...Ne4!?)

The bad news is that many of the early sidelines are not so bad - usually demanding a few accurate moves or move orders, which can be problematic to remember OTB as these lines were quickly mentioned within brackets in the books... But the dedicated dutcher will of course have seen them all before in several of his/her games over the years! Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rossia
Senior Member
****
Offline


Saw: "Game Over!"

Posts: 335
Location: Irkutsk
Joined: 09/17/07
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #14 - 02/22/08 at 10:49:28
Post Tools
As GM Kindermann points out (check his Chess academy: http://www.mucschach.de/Angebote/seminare.html) there are two top bazookas:

1. Leningrad Dutch
2. Slav & Semi-Slav complex

By combining these two openings you have both worlds: an aggressive one and the solid/aggressive one!!!

Play them both. They are outstanding, hard to break and points rewarding.  Wink Wink Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
DoubledPawns
Senior Member
****
Offline


1.a3 e5 2.Nc3 Ba3 3.Ne4
Bf8 4.Ra5 Ke7 5.Re5#

Posts: 283
Joined: 02/01/08
Re: Classical Dutch : Why is it so rare ?
Reply #13 - 02/21/08 at 05:27:09
Post Tools
It's always a bit risky to assign to rating division as to which openings work when...

Sorry if I didn't get my point across clearly enough - what I meant was that if you are playing in a major tournament or Open, where your opponents can see your games and prepare specifically for you, then it really helps to have another opening that you can play. 

I did not say that the Dutch is unplayable (that would not only be a load of rubbish, but also arrogant) - I entirely agree that it is an excellent practical choice, especially as a surprise weapon. However, playing the same opening all the time is risky (unless you are one of the leading experts in your country Wink), but playing a double-edged, tactical opening all the time (such as the Dutch) when your opponents can prepare for you is even riskier.

I can recall from my early career, when I played the same opening (which was very tactical), many of my opponents started preparing for me and beating me in that line, so I made sure I had another defence to 1.d4 as well.
  
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something - Plato
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge