Ametanoitos

First of all don't give up on the KID ! There are other lines worth playing since your not forced to go 12...f4 -eg 12.. kh8 is a pretty decent alternative.

Several points on your game. 
13 Rc1 is seems good for Black as you can go c5 and then white will be a tempo down on 11..c5 (Fischer) lines as white's going to go Rb1 at some stage. 13 c5 is the correct move order .

Perhaps you can post the whole game- no matter how painful it is.

Greetings,

I think that my earlier suggestion, whilst interesting, is a little late in the game to be looking for a way to get counterplay.

It seems to me that the better option would be to look for an improvement earlier in the game.

For example, 14..., c6!?; 15. cd, Qxd6; 16. dc, Nxc6; 17. Nb5, Qb8; 18. Nb4, a6; 19. Na3, Bd7; 20. Nxc6, Bxc6; 21. Nc4, Kh8; 22. Nb6, Qa7; 23. Qb3, Nd7; 24. Ba6, Bb5; 25. Bxb5, Nxb6 - needless to say, this is just a example!

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas

Quote:

Do they give a winning line or is the evaluation just stable (lets say about + 2,0 / +2.5 for White)? If its the second case then they position should be evaluated as unclear or dynamically balanced and not as lost. 

If you have a clear winning line for White please post it - I played around with my program (shredder 11) after 20...g4 and the comp just made typical "I dont have a plan" - moves: Like moving knigth forward and backward.

I'd like to give a second sample variation to show what I mean:

20...g4 21.Qd1 (stopping f3-ideas for the moment and preferred by the comp giving +2.5 here!) a6 22.Na3 h5 23.Nc5 (this is not the move the comp wants to play - but I think the critical plan as shown at the beginning of this thread - shredder wants Nb1  )) Qd6 24.Ne6 Qb6+ 25.Kh1 Bxe6 26.Rc6 Qb7 27.Rxe6 Nf8 28.Rc6 Rxc7 29.Rxc7 Qxc7 and Black is still fighting.

19...Nd5 (Dragan Glas) is an even more radical solution to the position (but I really like it...) - giving up another pawn but opening up the diagonal for the dark squared bishop - after 20.exd5 e4 21.fxe4 g4 22.d6 Bh6 we need someone from "Planet Shirov" around here  - if you win this with Black you get the brilliancy prize for sure 

I'd also like to add, that I think it worth trying your own White moves with the comp in this position and I am sure (cause it happens to me all the time), that you will be surprised how easy the evaluation of positions like this can change with only one move. If you for example think of the Nc5-plan and you go for 21.Nc5 - 21...f3 will follow and we are down on +1.25 for White but an attack for Black and I dare to say that White has to be very careful not to lose within the next 5-10 moves. Another natural move 22.Bd1 is already close to losing immediatly!

18.Bxf3 is much better than 18.gxf3. Also Soloviov's analysis is a bit old and can be improved easily.

@Matemax: I'm one of the few people that don't get distracted by the computer evaluations! I think that your suggestion is very good, very KID spirited and to the wright direction but Junior 10 and Hiarcs 11 easily refute black's attack after many hours of trying to show them what a real brain can do (my brain of course!)

Objectively i think that black has to accept a slightly inferior position  with one of the ...c5 ideas (as Fisher used to play). If i was a 1.d4 player i would love to have the 15.Nb5 line in my repertoir!

As a KI-player I dont want go down without a fight, therefore I would take a deep breath and after

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 O-O 5.e4 d6 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.Bd2 Nf6 12.f3 f4 13.Rc1 g5 14.c5 Ng6 15.Nb5 Rf7 16.Ba5 b6 17.cxd6 bxa5 18.dxc7 Qf8 19.Qd2 

play 19...Ne4!? 20.fe4 g4

Of course with a dramatic gesture and a confident look at my opponent.   



The position after g4 is a typical KI mess for me  White has won the battle on the queenside (as he ever does), but Black is starting his kingside attack. Its not a question of correct or not but of practical chances - just a naive sample variation:

21.d6 f3 22.Bd1 Bh6 23.Qxa5 Be3+ 24.Rf2 Nf4 25.Nxe5 Nh3+ 26.gxh3 Qg7 27.Kh1 g3 28.hxg3 Qxg3 and Black wins!

I dont let myself get distracted by comp evaluations after g4 - they are all in clear favour for White. The question is if White can really improve his position and win or if he just has to wait what happens with blacks attack. The kingside attack in the Kingsindian is always outside the comps scope - "he" (the comp) only understands it when its too late.

Listen to your Kingsindian heart  or tell me the sac is simply rubbish 

15...Rf7 16.Ba5! b6 17.cxd6! of course! 17..bxa5 18.dxc7 Qf8 19.Qd2! g4 20.Nc5! and white is winning! I don't know how black can stop the Nc5 idea. I tried for about a week (!) but i did not find a satisfactory line for black. So, what do you think? Let's start playing the Gruenfeld all together!

So far I just had a look at the book from Golubev and a quick glance at a internet database. I only found one game of higher rated players:

A   15....a6 was convincingly crushed with a knight sac:

[Event "Chigorin mem open"]
[Site "St Petersburg RUS"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[White "Shariyazdanov,A"]
[Black "Klimov,S"]
[WhiteElo "2465"]
[BlackElo "2355"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 O-O 5. Be2
d6 6. Nf3 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1
Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5
g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5 a6 16. cxd6 axb5 17. dxc7
Qd7 18. Qb3 g4 19. Bb4 Rf7 20. d6 g3 21. Rfd1
gxh2+ 22. Kxh2 b6 23. Ba3 Qe8 24. Nb4 Be6 25. Bxb5
Bd7 26. Bc4 Nh8 27. Nd5 Nxd5 28. Bxd5 b5 29. Bxa8
Qxa8 30. c8=Q+ 1-0

B   15...g4 is the move we want to play, but after 16.cxd cxd 17.Nc7 whites attack seems to be faster.

C   15...Rf7 looks good and standard to me. LeeRoth pointed out that 16.cxd transposes to the mainline. After 16.Ba5 b6 17.cxb why not axb 18.Bishop moves and 18....g4 searching for counterplay on the kingside?

So far I don´t see why black is worse off than in the mainlines.